Road To Courage ( religious beliefs section)

[Phoenix]

I have no hang ups where religious beliefs are concerned. I'm groping in the dark like everybody else. However, I would like to point out to recent posters that I have already made a link between mythologies and religions based on them (Norse, Greek etc), and at the same time I have drawn a distinction between those religions on the one hand and Christianity on the other, which is only linked to the Old Testament and its stories after the birth of Jesus Christ. It cannot be otherwise because that is when Christianity began. Any myths about Christianity, as opposed to those about God that can be read in the Old Testament, would have to have appeared later. In future millennia these may even include such writings as John Milton's Paradise Lost and CS Lewis's The Screwtape Letters.

A second point. Let me say at the outset that I am not denigrating other people's beliefs here. I am merely saying that in my opinion those who believe in God and those who are atheists are both wrong for the same reason, that being that they cannot provide anybody with proof. I am an agnostic because I rely on my five senses in order to acquire my knowledge of the world around me. Archbishops, evangelists and the Richard Dawkinses of this world can be as persuasive as they like but they are no more capable than I of actually furnishing proof one way or the other.

A question. How do you get something, or even a potential something, let alone an expanding universe full of planets and stars and black holes, out of absolutely nothing? Logic says you can't.

A second question. What then is the essential difference between the Big Bang theory and the God created everything theory?

[steelclaw]

Pass.

[Raven]

A question. How do you get something, or even a potential something, let alone an expanding universe full of planets and stars and black holes, out of absolutely nothing? Logic says you can't.

But science doesn't. Look into quantum theory/string theory and the other possible explanations of what may have existed before.

A second question. What then is the essential difference between the Big Bang theory and the God created everything theory?

The difference is this: the Big Bang Theory is based upon a vast body of scientific evidence, increasingly supported by all the latest advances in the technologies we use for cosmological observation: the satellites and increasingly powerful telescopes. We can see that space is still expanding, that galaxies are moving ever further apart and that it seems to be getting faster. The huge weight of scientific evidence, after a century of rigorous study, points towards the Big Bang Theory being correct.


The God created everything theory is based upon pure speculation and not a single shred of evidence.


That's the difference and it's why the onus would not be on non-believers to prove that God doesn't exist (proving absolutely conclusively that supernatural beings don't exist is more or less impossible) but on believers to prove that God does exist.

[Phoenix]

How do you get something, or even a potential something, let alone an expanding universe full of planets and stars and black holes, out of absolutely nothing? Logic says you can't.

But science doesn't. Look into quantum theory/string theory and the other possible explanations of what may have existed before.

I am talking about 'absolute nothing', with no potential for 'anything', therefore before 'anything'. It totally defies reason to assert that there was 'something' before this 'absolute nothing'. I am quite prepared for the kind of theories you mention, Raven, to add to our knowledge of the nature of the universe, but if they 'discover' even a 'potential something' in 'nothing', science will be on a collision course with humanity's ability to reason, and I would be challenged to move from my agnostic position towards a belief in a creator powerful enough to create 'something' out of 'nothing'. I would certainly not be able to justify going in the other direction.

The God created everything theory is based upon pure speculation and not a single shred of evidence.

Indeed, but so is the alternative, as I outline above. I don't doubt that there was some sort of Big Bang, I just know that because you and I are totally incapable of explaining it we cannot rule God out of the equation. In the meantime I will continue to sit on the fence.

[Raven]

I am talking about 'absolute nothing', with no potential for 'anything', therefore before 'anything'. It totally defies reason to assert that there was 'something' before this 'absolute nothing'.

But you're *assuming* that there was once an 'absolute nothing' with 'no potential for anything', Phoenix, which may not be correct.

If it *was* correct, then it would also negate the possibility of God/a supernatural creator, wouldn't it, for if there was *absolute nothing* before *anything* then logically there wouldn't be a creator either?

We look at things through the probably limited perceptions of four-dimensional beings, so we find concepts like eternity, a universe without an absolute starting point, or universes that have always existed in some form or other difficult to grasp, but they're not beyond our reasoning and they may be the truth of things.

I think scientists generally believe that there wasn't a period of absolute and utter potential-less nothing directly before the big bang, but though the primordial universe - before our own - may have been void-like and very small, there could still have been activity on a subatomic level. This is where quantum theory, string theory and the work of people like Stephen Hawking come into play. This primordial 'empty' world may have been unstable and something on the subatomic level could have triggered off the 'big bang.'

Something coming out of 'nothing' impossible? Well, not necessarily on the quantum level (where strange things happen), and therefore not beyond humanity's ability to reason. But, yes, at the moment they're still speculating.



And there was me thinking my 1,000th post would probably be about Whizzer and Chips. How about a theory that the universe was created by a Big D. C. Thomson Cracker Bang?

[Niblet]

I think the universe and all past events will be created when someone accidentally drops a Twix wrapper into the Large Hadron Collider at some point in the future, thus creating an infinite loop of chocolatey/crunchy/chewy wonderfullness.

[ISPYSHHHGUY]

Happy 1000th, Raven.........

on the subject of religions, I was reading this week of someone in a jobcentre who was ejected by security staff for refusing to put down their 'hoodie'......the ejectee protested that he was a member of the 'church of Jedi', and it was his right to wear a hood anywhere.
[A bit like some other religions wearing turbans/caps, etc]


The DSS caved in to PC protocol, and issued a groveling apology,-----['Jediism' is a recognized Worldwide religion, with thousands of members, and will feature in next years' census forms as an option] and now apparantly the DSS do-gooders may recieve a full-blown lawsuit as a result.

Although I concede there is a mild amusement factor in this case, it is the trivialization of religion like this that just gives proper belief a bad name.

[colcool007]

Being really lazy here, someone once said and I paraphrase quite baldly "That with evidence, there cannot be faith. As once evidence is provided, there is no need for faith."

As to the science of the Big Bang, black holes and something from nothing, the current model is a theory that best covers the available evidence and will be taught as Holy Writ amongst scientists until the next Einstein or Newton comes along and pulls that model to bits with a better theory to cover those annoying facts that are currently 'swept under the rug' as they don't fit the current model.

I also saw the Jedi story and all I can say is the may the Farce be with you. Meanwhile, I'll just take things on faith...

[AndyB]

Or, should you wish to be difficult, as I often am, you could view all of science as Man's best attempt to explain the rules that govern the day to day running of the universe that God created.

Facetious bit over... I think yes, the Big Bang is where it all started. I don't adhere to the 144 human hour creation or any form of Young Earth theory - I believe in terms of Genesis that the "days" are periods of time, considering that God lives outside time, and there's not that much difference to him between a day and a few million years. I don't really think that carbon dating can support a Young Earth theory.

What I do believe is that somewhere along the way, God caused the universe to be formed out of not very much, via the Big Bang as the most probable way, based on the evidence we can see. I also believe there are far too many coincidences, that the Earth just happened to be able to support life, that atoms came together to form life, that we have the abilities we have.

I'm a Christian. I therefore disagree with most of what Lew said about God in the other thread, but I will on the other hand defend his right to hold those beliefs - even though I believe they are wrong, and will talk to anyone (in private - I don't think Al would want any part of this forum to be used for prosletysing in however mild a form) about why I believe Jesus is the only way.

[Phoenix]

But you're *assuming* that there was once an 'absolute nothing' with 'no potential for anything', Phoenix, which may not be correct. If it *was* correct, then it would also negate the possibility of God/a supernatural creator, wouldn't it, for if there was *absolute nothing* before *anything* then logically there wouldn't be a creator either?

I don't recall thinking with any purpose about anything much until I went to Birmingham University. For a year or so there I went out regularly with a local Catholic girl who was so sure of her ground that my basically intelligent challenges to her assertions and her faith just weren't enough. I was really only playing devil's advocate but when I realised that I wasn't even denting her indoctrinated stance, I knew I needed to clarify my own position. It was then that I reached the impasse you refer to above, Raven. When I got to the Who created God? problem, I didn't feel comfortable with the God has always been there reply, nor was I any more comfortable with the God doesn't exist alternative, which was that Matter has always been there. I shelved all attempts to resolve this paradox for many years. I think I was troubled because I feared that if I pursued my reasoning I might end up an atheist.

For background information, let me say that I went to Sunday School from a fairly early age, eventually becoming a teacher or team leader there. As far as my relationship with religion was concerned, I was never forced or coerced by my parents at any time. In my teens I chose to go to the evening services as well. As with so many others, I was later swept up in the excitement and mass hysteria of a Billy Graham evangelistic crusade and was 'saved'. There followed a seamless transition to the National Young Life Campaign (Lancaster branch: non-denominational), which provided a service in a central venue, after the evening church services throughout the city, to allow people to attend both if they so wished. My association with this group ended when I started my degree course. The only thing I really missed was singing their hymns, which always seemed more melodic than the more traditional ones I was used to at my Congregational church. I also stopped going to that church at the same time and I have never gone back.

As you have seen from my previous posts on this topic, I find it difficult to remain rational in the face of the irrational. I cannot believe in matter (something) emerging from nothing without a creator being involved, and nor can I believe in a God whose existence cannot be proved by the only means at my disposal to do so. I think I have always leaned towards a God, although I feel that it is only because I wanted to believe, perhaps a comfort factor, I have never discovered what I was 'saved' for or from, the reason my friendship with the Catholic girl finished had nothing to do with our religious discussions, my reasoning on the paradox has only developed as far as the position I expressed in earlier posts, and I very much doubt whether any suggestions or points raised on this thread are going to have any impact whatsoever on my apparently untenable position. I am in no way ashamed of my religious background, nor do I feel that being an agnostic is in some way copping out. It is frankly the only reasonable and honourable position I can take up.

[steelclaw]

We know that from nothing, nothing comes. So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence.

Anyway the answer is 42

[felneymike]

Hasn't some quantum particle been discovered which "borrows" energy from the future in order to exist "now"? In that way something could potentially come from nothing because there is "something" now and some of that "something" may have travelled back in time to when there was "nothing" and become, erm, "something".

There's also the multiverse theory that there is an infinite number of universes and "stuff" from one can leak into another, thus an "empty" universe can be "fed stuff" from another and come into being. In fact now that i think about it if "stuff" can travel between universes and also back in time we may be in a loop, the end of the universe in billions of years time see's matter sent back in time to the start of the universe billions of years ago... meaning we're actually replaying all this crap for the umpteenth time and i still keep fluffing my lines!

Either way i don't much care about all of that. I do care about immunotherapy, gene therapy and stem cells... all the "miracle" medical breakthroughs of the not-so-distant future which will make the discovery of antibiotics look insignificant in comparison... i don't see the church as an institution working on any of them!