Disney ban non-American Marvel comics

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Raven
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Re: Disney ban non-American Marvel comics

Post by Raven » 06 Jun 2011, 17:05

tony ingram wrote:Actually, I look at the Zenith situation completely differently: like Alan moore in Captain Britain before him, and indeed Leah Moore, John Reppion and Shane Oakley in Albion years later.
I thought that was part of that same 'new guns trashing the sensibilities of earlier generations and the original strips' problem: you know, Eric Dolmann died in prison, Grimly Feendish is a killer, Bad Penny is a psychopath; these charming, whimsical characters from the world of childhood all grew up to have rotten, miserable lives and now they're all dead or in a coma or behind bars ... nothing whatsoever to do with the world of the original strips or characters, which were never "dark" in that way.

tony ingram wrote:Morrison basically brought those characters back because they meant something to him ...
... so he could brutally maim and kill them? I see it as just another example of the young "punk" nihilistically trashing what's gone before, destroying long-running, much-loved children's characters because he can, and would question what - beyond inflated hubris - makes writers think they should be stomping over this material that way.

It also shows how little the companies care about these British characters. Would Disney allow a rebooted Mickey Mouse to return and murder Clarabelle Cow and Horace Horsecollar, before visiting Dinky the Finch from The Fox and the Hound in jail, where he's now banged up for dealing crack, etc.?

Of course not; they know the value of their characters.

Lew Stringer
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Re: Disney ban non-American Marvel comics

Post by Lew Stringer » 06 Jun 2011, 17:31

Raven wrote: I recall one particularly unpleasant example of that kind of egotism being Grant Morrison reviving the likes of the Leopard of Lime Street and Steel Claw, to be maimed and killed in Zenith. The big ego seemingly must destroy what's gone before; not that these characters might actually have meant something to anyone.
I don't know if I'd say it was ego but it did seem to be the actions of someone breaking another kid's toys for spite.

Incidentally, back when that Zenith series was being produced I was asked by the editor to supply photocopies of The Steel Claw in his superhero costume so that the writer and artist had reference. (Even though the Claw didn't appear in that costume for long in Valiant's original stories that's the look 2000AD wanted.)

Had I known the Claw would last about two panels in Zenith before having his arm ripped off I wouldn't have bothered rooting through my old Valiants and taking them to the copy shop. :lol:

Anyway, I understand Zenith is tied up in legal limbo between Morrison and Egmont so can't be reprinted, but could the inclusion of those old IPC characters also be a factor I wonder?

Raven wrote:
tony ingram wrote:Actually, I look at the Zenith situation completely differently: like Alan moore in Captain Britain before him, and indeed Leah Moore, John Reppion and Shane Oakley in Albion years later.
I thought that was part of that same 'new guns trashing the sensibilities of earlier generations and the original strips' problem: you know, Eric Dolmann died in prison, Grimly Feendish is a killer, Bad Penny is a psychopath; these charming, whimsical characters from the world of childhood all grew up to have rotten, miserable lives and now they're all dead or in a coma or behind bars ... nothing whatsoever to do with the world of the original strips or characters, which were never "dark" in that way.
I liked Albion because it "did the dark" on old British comedy characters. It's the first time that's been done I think and was a good bit of fun. I wouldn't like to see it become the norm, as it has with superheroes though.

Although I might be biased because there's a Brickman reference in Albion, and I later tied it in with my own universe.

In the end we can choose to ignore Zenith and Albion's take on the characters if we wish as they don't continue directly from the original strips anyway.
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paw broon
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Re: Disney ban non-American Marvel comics

Post by paw broon » 06 Jun 2011, 17:42

I agree with you, Raven. I couldn't take Zenith and found it all a bit upsetting. I do believe that Morrison was only using these characters to further his own "edgy" reputation. It's all so seedy and a bit nasty. Only my opinion. He wont remember but, way back, he asked me and some others for some info. on some of the characters and, in fact, borrowed a couple of Superthriller comics from me. Wonder if he still has them. I certainly don't.
Albion was a washout because, again, the characters were taken out of, well, character. That's not to say that it wouldn't have bombed no matter what was done with them.
Sorry, Tony. I am a bit biased aginst Mr. Morrison's work, partly because of what he did with these old, much loved heroes. He's made his name and done really well. But was it necessarily for the good of comics?
Perhaps they would have been seen again. I notice that Archie have new Pureheart & co. stories (I think) and I would imagine there is a small market for either reprints or sympathetic new stories of many of these characters here in G.B. I've seen new Billy the Cat episodes. Why not old or new Ace Hart adventures, Leopard, perhaps Catch the Cat in a Commando style comic, or Black Sapper in same? As long as we don't have graphic violence, unwanted pregnancies, relationship problems etc.

Raven
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Re: Disney ban non-American Marvel comics

Post by Raven » 06 Jun 2011, 17:43

Lew Stringer wrote: I don't know if I'd say it was ego but it did seem to be the actions of someone breaking another kid's toys for spite.
That's a very good way of putting it, Lew. Spot on.

Lew Stringer wrote: I liked Albion because it "did the dark" on old British comedy characters.
Almost everything seems to be done that way now, though. "Dark" is the default mode; aren't we a bit tired of it? I'd like to have seen some of the classic characters brought back in mini series, really well written and conceived, with modern pace, but in character and retaining their original values and charm - because it's still an appealing and exciting world they inhabit.

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Re: Disney ban non-American Marvel comics

Post by Lew Stringer » 06 Jun 2011, 18:01

paw broon wrote: Sorry, Tony. I am a bit biased aginst Mr. Morrison's work, partly because of what he did with these old, much loved heroes. He's made his name and done really well. But was it necessarily for the good of comics?
Perhaps they would have been seen again. I notice that Archie have new Pureheart & co. stories (I think) and I would imagine there is a small market for either reprints or sympathetic new stories of many of these characters here in G.B. I've seen new Billy the Cat episodes. Why not old or new Ace Hart adventures, Leopard, perhaps Catch the Cat in a Commando style comic, or Black Sapper in same? As long as we don't have graphic violence, unwanted pregnancies, relationship problems etc.
The non-appearance of new stories of classic characters has nothing to do with Zenith's interpretation of them though. They'd faded away before then. The publishers don't think there's a big enough market for them now.
Raven wrote:
Lew Stringer wrote: I liked Albion because it "did the dark" on old British comedy characters.
Almost everything seems to be done that way now, though. "Dark" is the default mode; aren't we a bit tired of it?
Yes, but Albion was the first time it'd been done to old UK humour characters. Made a change. Wouldn't like to see it become the norm though.
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chrissmillie
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Re: Disney ban non-American Marvel comics

Post by chrissmillie » 06 Jun 2011, 18:03

Well, I thought Zenith was terrific. I also loved that dark Action special too. Did to Brit characters what Alan Moore did to Charlton's. And both stories were superb.

I don't think IPC characters have anything to do with the Zenith limbo situation. For a start, the majority were re-named and mainly re-designed, so Tiger Tom and Tammy was as much Billy the Cat and Katie as Superman is Superior (I know now they're the same company but they weren't always). It seems it's to do with who owns the rights: Rebellion or Morrison.

I loved the whole Crisis on Infinite Earths. Superman had become way too powerful, with so many abilities. Byrne regressing him to being 'merely' super worked really well.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't mind change as long as it's done well. Death of the Flash was wonderful. Green Lantern turning into Parallax was woeful. Mark Millar's Fantastic Four (or Six as I guess it was) was great. Grant Morrison's Infinite Crisis was terrible. Frank Miller's Daredevil was a vast improvement upon the Spider-Man copy of years, whilst the Death of the Human Torch just destroyed the whole reason for buying the FF.
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felneymike
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Re: Disney ban non-American Marvel comics

Post by felneymike » 06 Jun 2011, 18:19

"Dark" is the default mode; aren't we a bit tired of it?
YES! Among the many slogans of my own comics are "We'll never turn darker" and "We never updated our code!"

As for Albion:
http://mike.crystal-knights.co.uk/__one ... 5/0003.jpg

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paw broon
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Re: Disney ban non-American Marvel comics

Post by paw broon » 06 Jun 2011, 18:37

Gosh, where do I go from here? O.k. first, Crisis on Infinite Earths was great. What a decision and how brave of DC to kill off Flash - for keeps. Well, sort of, as we now see.
I do feel that if DC thomson can keep Commando going and, on the continent and the USA, there are lots of reprints, with small circulation, of old strips, not only from the big 2, there has to be a small market for at least reprints. Although, I think DC own the rights to the old Fleetway characters. All this might be wishful thinking on my part but it is good fun and an interesting diversion from real life.
More importantly, my dinner is ready and not much keeps me from that.
By the way, DC halved Superman's power back at the time of the sand creature. Great stories with excellent art by Swan and Anderson.

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Digifiend
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Re: Disney ban non-American Marvel comics

Post by Digifiend » 06 Jun 2011, 20:33

Fleetway's rights are split - 1970 and later (except for 2000AD) belongs to Egmont, pre-1970 (with the exception of Dan Dare and certain Buster characters), you're right, it's Time Warner, the owner of DC Comics, because they also own IPC Media.

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