THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

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stevezodiac
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THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by stevezodiac »

All of today's tabloids carried this story. Just wondering what other forum members views were on the possibility of extra terrestrial (intelligent) life? I must be one of the few people who wanted to think there was some credibility in Chariots of the Gods. The fact is the Universe has been in existence for billions of years - other life forms may have been created and become extinct before we ever came into being. The usual response is that the nearest star is light years away and no craft can travel at that speed but there is so much we do not know.

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matrix
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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by matrix »

A very interesting topic Steve, a view that i have had on the subject for a while is that intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is very rare, (exsitence of non intelligent life not so rare).

Not only do you need the correct environment for life to exsist, you also need certain events within lifes evolutionary process that allow intelligent life to evolve.

Another interesting point for myself is the simulation argument by Nick Bostrom http://www.simulation-argument.com which could affect the views mentioned.

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starscape
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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by starscape »

Considering there are more galaxies than grains of sand, billions of suns in each and planets probably around most stars, the chances of little Earth, in an unremarkable part of the Milky Way, being unique is impossible odds.
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Given that life exists from super-heated vents to the coldest snow, I suspect life is a pretty common event. I know the events that need to happen require some consideration (I lecture in evolution) but with the enormous size of even one galaxy, never mind the whole universe, they're not going to be that rare. In fact, some people argue it happened on the nearest planet, Mars (although I dispute that asteroid finding). If it's true life evolved on the only other planet we've looked at, it must be a pretty common occurrence.

Von Daniken? Another matter entirely. Science is about questioning, hypothesising, gathering evidence in a non-biased manner and supporting/rejecting a theory without prejudice. EVD interprets evidence according to what he wants to believe, not the facts on the ground. It's a fun theory but his reasoning is full of holes. Quantum mechanics is much weirder than aliens or gods but is accepted due to empirical evidence. There's no anti-truth conspiracy. Just bad science.

But this painting however. This is tempting...
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matrix
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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by matrix »

Starscape do you mean more suns than grains of sand?

There are so many variables for intelligent life to take hold, your point of view seems to be about all life, which looking at the earth we all know exists in abundance, but intelligent life? (Sometimes i wonder about that).

It has taken a long time for intelligent life to evolve on the earth, i think on the twenty four hour clock intelligent life has been here for about four seconds.

I keep an open mind and would be thrilled if they discovered any other life out there.

I just think the odds are stacked against intelligent life being abundant in the universe.

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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by alanultron5 »

It has been theorised that many millions of years ago; before the `greenhouse effect` took hold; that Venus might have reached the point where primitive life was just evolving. Its near certain that Venus did have oceans before becoming an oven!
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starscape
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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by starscape »

matrix wrote:Starscape do you mean more suns than grains of sand?
No, I mean more galaxies. Actually no-one really knows (how big is the universe for a start). It's an awesome number anyway. That's the point I was trying to get across.
matrix wrote:There are so many variables for intelligent life to take hold, your point of view seems to be about all life, which looking at the earth we all know exists in abundance, but intelligent life? (Sometimes i wonder about that).
My view is that there's so much life out there (my view) that it's likely intelligence has arisen multiple times. Yes, there are many twists and turns, many kinds of intelligence but there are just so many potentials out there, to believe we are somehow unique, just doesn't seem to marry up to me. Earth just isn't that special to have come up with something so incredible.

And I don't think life is that incredible either. It starts from such mundane beginnings where the dividing line between life and non-life is marginal. So, I suspect life is very common in the universe. Intelligent life, far less so. But when considering the scale, still present on a vast number of worlds. What intelligence might mean to another race though is completely different to ours. We can't even talk to other apes. What hope alien life?

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stevezodiac
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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by stevezodiac »

There was a two page follow up in today's Daily Express. I know its the sort of thing the Mail and Express grab onto eagerly as it titillates readers from all walks of life. But it is an interesting subject. Sadly we'll have all passed on by the time an encounter with ET takes place.

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swirlythingy
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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by swirlythingy »

I don't have very many opinions on extraterrestrial intelligence, in much the same way as I don't have very many on the notion of fairies at the bottom of the garden, but I do have quite a few about media trustworthiness, and the extent to which, by selective omission or misrepresentation of the facts, tabloid newspapers regularly contrive to suggest a quite different picture to that presented by reality.

Based upon the information given in the article above, one might reasonably assume that this Timothy Good fellow is an "academic" and an "ex-US government consultant". Two paragraphs in particular are phrased to suggest that he had inside knowledge of the incident taking place within the same government:
The President... met the extra terrestrials at a remote air base in New Mexico in 1954 after FBI officials made contact through "telepathic messages", according to Timothy Good.

Mr Good, who worked for the Pentagon and Congress, said there were "many witnesses" to the encounters at Holloman Air Force base.
His personal website proudly describes this devoted public servant not just as any old ex-US government consultant, but as none other than "a leading authority on UFOs and the alien presence". It also reveals that "he became interested in the subject in 1955", after reading a book, presumably not having had his interest sufficiently piqued by the president holding clandestine council with otherworldly beings just the previous year. Then again, he was, according to most sources, born in 1941, so perhaps we can attribute this failing merely to the follies of youth, and the pressures of such a precociously serious job.

In fact, this would appear to be far from the first of the sensational revelations from inside which he has selflessly brought to the attention of the public, and a quite remarkable number of such discoveries seem to involve more governmental business being performed under similarly deadly secret conditions. His prolific oeuvre includes, among others, the noted titles "Above Top Secret: The Worldwide UFO Cover-up" (1987), "Alien Liaison: The Ultimate Secret" (1991), "Alien Base: Earth's Encounters with Extraterrestrials" (1998), "Unearthly Disclosure: Conflicting Interests in the Control of Extraterrestrial Intelligence" (2000, and serialised in the Daily Mail, no less) and "Need to Know: UFOs, the Military and Intelligence" (2007).

He tantalisingly hints at the nature of his aforementioned employment at the Pentagon with the gnomic sentence: "He was invited for discussions at the Pentagon in 1998, and at the headquarters of the French Air Force in 2002." However, he does not elaborate beyond this, and leaves the gaps in his no doubt highly classified job description to be filled in by the awestruck reader. He is similarly brief about his time working for Congress, stating only: "He has also acted as consultant for several U.S. Congress investigations." This must, for lack of any evidence to the contrary, have doubled up as the time he spent working as a "US government consultant".

Other sources summarise his career with the phrase, "British Ufologist and professional violinist", which is a Tom Paterson-esque potted biography if ever I saw one. He played with the London Symphony Orchestra for fourteen years, when not being consulted by the government on the other side of the Atlantic ocean or holding down his top-secret day job at the Pentagon.

He is also, it seems, "known to millions through his numerous television appearances", extending even to the prestige of a guest slot on a programme hosted by the estimable Mr Skinner. He has "co-produced several documentaries on [UFOs]", surely entitling him to a place amongst the leading academic lights in this noble field. And, finally, being a man devoted to his work, he gives up what little free time he has to lecturing "at universities, schools, and at many organizations", including the intriguing entity of "the House of Lords All-Party UFO Study Group" (apparently formed in 1979 on the whim of one Lord Clancarty, meeting irregularly for several years, and rendered more or less defunct when its founder died in 1995).

On the strength of the superlative list of achievements above, Mr Good, in the article scanned at the beginning of this thread, is quoted as an authority, with knowledge (and evidence) of the occurrence of which he speaks, and as a university-lecturing academic who is, somewhat inexplicably, making such a claim in public for the first ever time in spite of his considerable published output on exactly the same matter over the last three decades. This, as opposed to a crank of no relevance and questionable sanity, leading his little group of followers and cultists by repeating untruths for which there are no evidence, once again being granted a mainstream platform which he does not deserve, thus contributing just a little bit more to the groaning casefile of the general unreliability of the tabloid press and those who misguidedly continue to place their faith in it, instead of investigating its nonsense all too frequently presented as fact for themselves.
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matrix
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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by matrix »

One Thing Swirly you have proved that intelligent life definitely exists in Wimbledon, with an assesment like that of the newspaper article in the first post!!

Starscape, i understand the point you are trying to make, i am not disputing the size of the universe or its ability to produce life forms elsewhere.

The point i was trying to make was how come it took so long for (using humans as an example) intelligent life to take hold on this planet, my 24hr clock was an example, or over 4 billion years?

I do think the earth is a beautiful and special planet, its a shame that some humans do not appreciate it.

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stevezodiac
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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by stevezodiac »

Good work Swirly. I admire the efforts you have made to prove/disprove the verisimilitude of this story. I'd like to believe in intelligent aliens but I believe what I see which is why I have never believed in god. It amazes me that millions of so called intelligent humans can devote their whole lives to something of which there is not a shred of evidence. But if it brings them comfort and succor then good for them.

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starscape
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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by starscape »

If you're really thinking about it, you have two choices:
a) you can follow the advances made by physicists with their quest for the birth of the universe with mathematical models, super-string theories and observations of cosmic microwave background radiation. And the search for life by biologists, including DNA evidence, the fossil record, biogeography and adaptation.

or...

b) it was all created by a giant invisible wizard* - one with an obsessive interest in a mote of dust in the universe - and not every species, just one out of the millions. Particularly its mating habits. And guess what, he's got the personality of a human with magic powers! Isn't that a coincidence. It's almost like we created him. Surely not. (although I say him, let's not forget that out of the billions of galaxies, stars and planets, in this little mote of dust, we have thousands of different gods - those being divisible by geography).

*in seven days no less - he made the sun and the moon on the 4th day, yet already had day and night by day one. Took him two days to make the Earth, yet only one to make the billions of stars and galaxies - all of which were made AFTER the Earth. Believable?

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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by felneymike »

There is more "intelligent life" on earth than just humans, various species of primate (and some birds) have been observed using tools, and dolphins and whales have 'languages'. Given a few million more years of unrestricted evolution who knows what they would come up with? And in the beginning humans actually shared the planet with some other beings of not-much-less intelligence.
As for life that is intelligent enough to have developed advanced spacecraft? Well there's been as many "happy accidents" that have held back progress as there have to push it along. The Romans very nearly invented the steam engine - where might we be now if the industrial revolution had occurred 1800 years early?

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stevezodiac
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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by stevezodiac »

And i've seen budgies riding miniature bikes and dogs on skateboards...

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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by paw broon »

This might not shed much light on extra-terrestrial intelligence(s) but anyone who is not familiar with what is out there in space beyond our sun's backyard should experience some sense of wonder in these images. Perhaps, knowing that each of these galaxies contains millions of stars (and, as we now know, many other stars have planetary systems) will encourage the thought that intelligent life could well exist, or have existed, on other worlds. Apart from that the images are stunningly beautiful:-
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... &va=galaxy
Here is a link to the Hubble site:-
http://hubblesite.org/gallery/

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starscape
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Re: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Post by starscape »

An interactive site about how really massive the universe is:
http://scaleofuniverse.com/

Current theory also states we're in a pocket universe too (one bubble in a sea of soap suds). There's also some interesting speculation about universes and a type of natural selection.

Factor in anything like quantum universes and other dimensions, then, phew, I need a lie down...!

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