A sex change for Thor

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Marionette
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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by Marionette » 19 Jul 2014, 20:45

philcom55 wrote:I must admit that I'd quite like to see Thor break down and reveal that he'd always secretly felt like a woman in a man's body, and then apply for gender-reassignment surgery after living and dressing as a woman for the required twelve months. Somehow I don't think that's the kind of 'sex change' they mean though! I wonder if this has anything to do with the recent reintroduction of Neil Gaiman's Angela to the Marvel Universe?

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No. Angela's getting her own series. This is, as far as I can tell, a whole new character.
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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by tony ingram » 20 Jul 2014, 08:59

Marionette wrote:Marvel are having a bit of a shake up, and trying out some unusual ideas. Fanboys are melting in misogynistic rage, which would be hilarious if it wasn't so nauseating.

I think it is due, in part, to the massive success of Superior Spider-Man, in which Peter Parker's brain was taken over by Doctor Octopus. It was never intended to be permanent, but was a great storyline, in which Doc Ock gets to be the good guy and prove that he could be the better (superior) Spider-man. Spoiler: he fails. But fails spectacularly.

Thor has already been replaced twice, so I'm not sure what people's panties are in such a bunch for. I remembered reading that first issue by Walt Simonson, where Beta Ray Bill picks up Thor's hammer (which is disguised as a stick at the time), not realising what it is, and becomes an alien Thor. It was one of the most fantastic and exciting comics I ever read in my life. I don't know why fans these days are so outraged at anything outside the norm happening.
Three times, surely? What about Red Norvell?

Anyone with any understanding of the comics industry must know that this is only temporary, but it could well the springboard for the new female character to spin off into her own title when she's done her stint as Thor.

And Steve Rodgers has been replaced as Captain America so often it's getting like he has someone stand in for him while he's on holiday. Hell, last time he was dead for six months.
He was dead for a few years, real time...

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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by starscape » 20 Jul 2014, 09:34

I don't think its necessarily misogynistic to object to She-Thor or racist when a character changes colour, like Heimdall in the movie. They also objected to Bucky becoming Cap and that's not necroticism if such a word even exists. Readers are fans of the character, as much as the story. If Dennis the Menace changed colour, gender or had a skinhead, it changes the character to someone else. Its not all about the story.

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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by Lew Stringer » 20 Jul 2014, 09:54

starscape wrote:I don't think its necessarily misogynistic to object to She-Thor or racist when a character changes colour, like Heimdall in the movie. They also objected to Bucky becoming Cap and that's not necroticism if such a word even exists. Readers are fans of the character, as much as the story. If Dennis the Menace changed colour, gender or had a skinhead, it changes the character to someone else. Its not all about the story.
Surely it's about character and story? If it's handled well we'll see how the new responsibilities affect the characters taking over the roles, we'll see how the world within the stories reacts, we'll see how the diminished responsibilities / powers / abilities affect the previous Cap and Thor. As I understand it, the old characters will still be in the comics so surely fans of the characters will be interested in character development? Or do they just want the status quo to never vary, not even for the run of a story arc?

Yes, fans did object to Bucky becoming Captain America. And what happened? Those stories turned out to be some of the best Cap comics to have appeared in years! Opinion changed.

Of course I'm assuming the new characters will be well written to explore these avenues. They might turn out to be weak stories that fail to live up to their potential. We'll see. I don't understand why so many fans object to change purely on the basis of change, before the comics are even published.

And yes, if Dennis the Menace was replaced by a new Menace for a while that could be a very interesting story indeed!
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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by starscape » 20 Jul 2014, 10:05

I agree with that, to an extent anyway. Bucky returning was masterfully handled. My point was it isn't necessarily misogynistic or racist to not want that dynamic change.

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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by Lew Stringer » 20 Jul 2014, 10:18

starscape wrote:I agree with that, to an extent anyway. Bucky returning was masterfully handled. My point was it isn't necessarily misogynistic or racist to not want that dynamic change.
I don't think anyone mentioned racism here, although I have noticed elsewhere that people have said they'll drop the comic on account of a black Captain America. Frankly I don't think Marvel would shed any tears over losing those sort of readers.
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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by Raven » 20 Jul 2014, 12:50

Lew Stringer wrote: They might turn out to be weak stories that fail to live up to their potential. We'll see. I don't understand why so many fans object to change purely on the basis of change, before the comics are even published.
Might there be an awareness that the marketing team now have a big say in editorial, and a sense that certain "gimmicks" are being imposed - these endless "big event" storylines (and relaunches and crossovers ... ) worked out by the story-planning committee, with the marketing department's involvement, the latter concerned with what will get good media coverage?

For me, the more interesting US stuff is more likely to come from the creator-owned titles at companies like Image.

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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by colcool007 » 20 Jul 2014, 13:20

I will start by saying that I rarely follow the DC/Marvel characters.

I personally think that this could be good for the character, if the stories are well written and there is a good hand on artistic duties. But if the stories are weak or there is the use of third line artists (not necessarily bad, but just don't quite get the top jobs) then this could be just a storm in a teacup.

I hope the stories are good and they do shake the misogynists out of the comic world. As these are people we don't need to represent our hobby. Plus, it never hurts a fanboy to have his preconceptions broken up a time or three.
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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by Lew Stringer » 20 Jul 2014, 13:26

Raven wrote:
Lew Stringer wrote: They might turn out to be weak stories that fail to live up to their potential. We'll see. I don't understand why so many fans object to change purely on the basis of change, before the comics are even published.
Might there be an awareness that the marketing team now have a big say in editorial, and a sense that certain "gimmicks" are being imposed - these endless "big event" storylines (and relaunches and crossovers ... ) worked out by the story-planning committee, with the marketing department's involvement, the latter concerned with what will get good media coverage?
Absolutely, but again, if a story is well told then it's worth following. Again, I use the example of The Winter Soldier / Bucky Cap saga, that fans were predicting would be a disaster but in fact completely revitalized the comic and was adapted (in part) into one of the best superhero movies we've seen.

Basically we don't know how the comics will turn out until they're published, and just because cold corporate cynicism might be forcing the changes it doesn't mean the stories themselves will be creatively bankrupt.
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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by Raven » 20 Jul 2014, 14:00

colcool007 wrote: I hope the stories are good and they do shake the misogynists out of the comic world. As these are people we don't need to represent our hobby.
I'm not sure the new Thor is geared towards shifting comic book perceptions of women, or to get more women reading them - she looks like yet another huge-breasted female superhero!

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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by starscape » 20 Jul 2014, 14:26

Racism was the charge against readers objecting to Heimdall changing race in the movie. I suspect most just wanted a faithful comics adaptation. Col mentions misogyny again. I suspect very few readers are against Wonder Woman and would object just as ferociously to Diana Prince changing to David.

I just think these terms should be considered a little more. Readers aren't necessarily bigoted for wanting identifiable characters to remain broadly similar to what they first liked. Yes, it can work but let's leave those terms of abuse to people that deserve it.

And, really, fanboys??? People on here that collect, categorise, catalogue, store and process their comics are using a derogatory term for others that do the same thing?

They are readers who, rightly or wrongly, want to keep reading characters they have grown up with. For very few, it's prejudice. They want Power Man to be black and male from New York and Power Girl white and female mixing with an aging JSA. That's not bigotry. Maybe you think unadventurous. But no need for over the top accusations.

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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by Lew Stringer » 20 Jul 2014, 15:34

starscape wrote:Racism was the charge against readers objecting to Heimdall changing race in the movie. I suspect most just wanted a faithful comics adaptation. Col mentions misogyny again. I suspect very few readers are against Wonder Woman and would object just as ferociously to Diana Prince changing to David.

I just think these terms should be considered a little more. Readers aren't necessarily bigoted for wanting identifiable characters to remain broadly similar to what they first liked. Yes, it can work but let's leave those terms of abuse to people that deserve it.

And, really, fanboys??? People on here that collect, categorise, catalogue, store and process their comics are using a derogatory term for others that do the same thing?

They are readers who, rightly or wrongly, want to keep reading characters they have grown up with. For very few, it's prejudice. They want Power Man to be black and male from New York and Power Girl white and female mixing with an aging JSA. That's not bigotry. Maybe you think unadventurous. But no need for over the top accusations.
You've lost me. What terms of abuse? What OTT accusations? I'm sure Marionette and Colcool were not using 'fanboys' to insult anyone here, and no one's accused anyone of being racist.
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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by starscape » 20 Jul 2014, 15:56

The racism was me widening the discussion. It's now misogyny being discussed on this forum but it has recently been racism in the general comics world. I used the example of Heimdall. I feel not wanting race to change is the same as not wanting gender to change for most people. Not prejudice, just a desire to keep comic characters the way they enjoyed, be they Power Man or Power Girl.

OTT accusations: not wanting a female Thor is misogyny. I doubt it. There's no clamour to convert Black Canary or Storm to be male. It seems over the top to me to accuse people of wanting Thor to remain a god, as opposed to a goddess, to be women-haters.

Fanboy is commonly used as an insult in comic forums. Not the biggest insult ever but everyone on here would be a fanboy in the wider world. It's just a little silly to do it.

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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by Marionette » 20 Jul 2014, 18:55

starscape wrote:Racism was the charge against readers objecting to Heimdall changing race in the movie. I suspect most just wanted a faithful comics adaptation. Col mentions misogyny again. I suspect very few readers are against Wonder Woman and would object just as ferociously to Diana Prince changing to David.

I just think these terms should be considered a little more. Readers aren't necessarily bigoted for wanting identifiable characters to remain broadly similar to what they first liked. Yes, it can work but let's leave those terms of abuse to people that deserve it.

And, really, fanboys??? People on here that collect, categorise, catalogue, store and process their comics are using a derogatory term for others that do the same thing?

They are readers who, rightly or wrongly, want to keep reading characters they have grown up with. For very few, it's prejudice. They want Power Man to be black and male from New York and Power Girl white and female mixing with an aging JSA. That's not bigotry. Maybe you think unadventurous. But no need for over the top accusations.
I'm not sure who you think I'm talking about, since at the time I made the point about misogyny nobody here had said anything negative about the female Thor. I was referring to comments made elsewhere, such as described in this article.

And suggesting that making a female character male is exactly the same as making a male character female is absurd, even if you weren't talking about an icon of feminism. It's not a level playing field. When Marvel's characters are overwhelmingly male, white, and straight, changing one of them to be female, black, or LGBT is a move toward equality. Taking one of the small minority of characters who are female and turning them into a white straight guy just makes the playing field more uneven.
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Re: A sex change for Thor

Post by Marionette » 20 Jul 2014, 19:20

starscape wrote:The racism was me widening the discussion. It's now misogyny being discussed on this forum but it has recently been racism in the general comics world. I used the example of Heimdall. I feel not wanting race to change is the same as not wanting gender to change for most people. Not prejudice, just a desire to keep comic characters the way they enjoyed, be they Power Man or Power Girl.

OTT accusations: not wanting a female Thor is misogyny. I doubt it. There's no clamour to convert Black Canary or Storm to be male. It seems over the top to me to accuse people of wanting Thor to remain a god, as opposed to a goddess, to be women-haters.
And I wrote about what a brilliant story it was when Thor's hammer was taken up by Beta Ray Bill. Unless you have never read an American superhero comic you have to know that any such change is only going to be temporary, so you know everything will be reset within a couple of years. To suggest a story is wrong and bad before you have even read it, purely because it involves a character being replaced by a version that is black or female is quite specifically racist/misogynist, and none of the straw-men you are setting up can hide that.

Fanboy is commonly used as an insult in comic forums. Not the biggest insult ever but everyone on here would be a fanboy in the wider world. It's just a little silly to do it.
I was using it as an insult toward those people, overwhelmingly male, who have such a sense of entitlement that they think they should get to tell the actual comic producers how to write their comics, that they should have some kind of veto over stories they haven't read yet and which they know next to nothing about, and because of the racist and misogynist attitudes they display that make me feel embarrassed to be a comics fan. Anyone who does not fit that description need not feel insulted.
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