Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

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tolworthy
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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by tolworthy »

[quote:63e4d43a01="ISPYSHHHGUY"]FLEISCHER'S black-and-white early 'POPEYE' wasn't far behind, in terms of human achievement![/quote:63e4d43a01]
I wish I could afford to read them legally. This touches one of my hot buttons.

Warning: tangent ahead!

That is why I am strongly opposed to the present form of the copyright laws. I consider myself reasonably well informed about comics, but there are whole worlds of comics that I only know about second or third hand. Most people, casual comic readers, are completely ignorant of these masterpieces. Sure, we can maybe read a single panel or two in an anthology, but to really understand historical worlds you need to be immersed in them, to shift gear into the thinking of the time.

So many glorious and timeless classics are effectively lost. There are jewels out there that nobody can pick up because the copyright laws forbid it. And who benefits? Nobody makes any money on the old stuff, but nobody will release it because of the fear that somebody else might make money on it. For older works, copyright laws are lose-lose for everyone.

Personally I think the patent laws are far more sensible (and profitable for everyone): partents last for just 19 or 20 years. That gives the creators plenty of time to recoup their investment, and then society asd a whole can benefit for free. All the arguments for lengthy copyright laws become absurd in the face of the reality of patents. Short copyright would not reward the creators? Rubbish. Billions are invested in a drug or other complex invention, and it is all recouped in a few years. Short copyright would discourage new creations? Rubbish. Releasing old ideas acts as a stimulus for new ideas, that's the whole reason for limiting patent time periods.

Sorry for going off on a tangent. But I weep for the loss of culture. There are economic as wel as cultural reasons why Jonah, early Popeye, early Mickey Mouse, and every other early comic should be set free.

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ISPYSHHHGUY
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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by ISPYSHHHGUY »

the stifling laws regarding regional coding on DVDS are another irritant from sterile-minded accountants, who display no real imagination.

Lew Stringer
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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by Lew Stringer »

[quote:b36a8d2291="tolworthy"]

Personally I think the patent laws are far more sensible (and profitable for everyone): partents last for just 19 or 20 years. That gives the creators plenty of time to recoup their investment, and then society asd a whole can benefit for free. [/quote:b36a8d2291]

Why should readers benefit for free? Comics are completely different to drug patents. UK comic collectors tend to favour the children's comics they read when they were young, a nostalgic passion, which is usually over your 20 year remit. What you're proposing would effectively mean that none of those creators would benefit from the nostalgia market.

Not that they're benefiting now either of course, as it's the publishers who own the rights to most of those old strips, not the creators. If anything should be changed it's the opportunity for those creators or their next of kin to receive a payment from reprints.

Lew

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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by tolworthy »

[quote:c4becf40cf="Lew Stringer"]Why should readers benefit for free?[/quote:c4becf40cf]

Several reasons, but without going into a discussion of society and proerty, the simplest reason is that that it benefits both sides.

[quote:c4becf40cf="Lew Stringer"]What you're proposing would effectively mean that none of those creators would benefit from the nostalgia market. [/quote:c4becf40cf]

You mean like they benefit now?

My porposal is that fans are able to promote and share the old stuff, which increases demand for new stuff. There is no danger that fans will ever get "enough" of the old stuff that they no longer want more. The real danger is that potential fans never see the best comics in the first place.

[quote:c4becf40cf="Lew Stringer"]If anything should be changed it's the opportunity for those creators or their next of kin to receive a payment from reprints.[/quote:c4becf40cf]

That would be achieved by reducing the copyright period: a shorter copyright period expands the market, to everyone's benefit. Creators are then in a better position to negotiate terms. But simply adding to an industry's costs will hasten the demise of the industry and help nobody in the long run.

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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by Lew Stringer »

[quote="tolworthy"][quote:a038ce8cb5="Lew Stringer"]Why should readers benefit for free?[/quote:a038ce8cb5]

[quote:a038ce8cb5="tolworthy"]Several reasons, but without going into a discussion of society and proerty, the simplest reason is that that it benefits both sides.[/quote:a038ce8cb5]

The simple fact is the strips are NOT the property of the readers. Why should they be if the creators don't want them to go into the public domain?


[quote:a038ce8cb5="tolworthy"]That would be achieved by reducing the copyright period: a shorter copyright period expands the market, to everyone's benefit. Creators are then in a better position to negotiate terms. But simply adding to an industry's costs will hasten the demise of the industry and help nobody in the long run.[/quote:a038ce8cb5]

What makes you think that IPC, Egmont, Thomsons or any other mainstream UK publisher would consider negotiation under your proposal? They don't negotiate now, so how would reducing copyright terms encourage them to do so under your idea?

Seems to me that although you agree that publishers shouldn't own the work of creators, you're quite happy for the public to own them. Either way, the people who have done the grafting aren't the winners copyright wise.

Lew

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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by Lew Stringer »

[quote:5c0ffe9182="tolworthy"]

My porposal is that fans are able to promote and share the old stuff, which increases demand for new stuff. There is no danger that fans will ever get "enough" of the old stuff that they no longer want more.[/quote:5c0ffe9182]

So instead of reaping the benefits of royalties from his work, Joe Bloogs has to keep on producing new pages until he pegs out for the benefit of his fan base, however small that may be? Sounds much the same as it is now, except that the fans get to see out-of-print material much easier than seeking it out on eBay. But where's the incentive for creators and publishers to stick with comics?

You seem to think that fans should have a given right to this material and that copyright law should be changed just to suit a tiny percentage of collectors. Doesn't seem realistic or very ethical to me.

Lew

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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by NP »

Lew, you're damn right.

tolworthy
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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by tolworthy »

Profit from selling new material, just like any other industry. A weekly wage, just like any other industry. Plus the satisfaction of creating something lasting, something that generations will enjoy, instead of the present system where old art disappears without a trace, remembered only by a tiny band of hardcore fans with deep pockets.

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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by NP »

Tolworthy, the 'Real World' is how Lew describes it, not your fanciful imaginings. Seriously, re-read what you have said and Lew's replies. The fanbase in the UK is tiny, and comparing Marvel and DC to British publishers... words fail me.
What 'star names' are you refering to?
And take the publishers to court yourself to claim 'your' percentage of the rights to their characters and strips, go on, should be entertaining.
Lew, you're damn right.

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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by Kashgar »

Very interesting stuff guys but how fitting that a strand commenced to celebrate all things Jonah should run aground!
Do we laugh at Jonah because our Elizabethan ancestors split their sides when a fair proportion of the Armada went down? Maybe, but I think it's just more to do with the comedic pleasure in seeing someone getting wet.

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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by ISPYSHHHGUY »

EXCELLENT, STIRRING DEBATE, BOYS.......steeped in controversy, like the celebrated sea-goon himself: his spirit still lives on!

Lew Stringer
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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by Lew Stringer »

[quote:b75976f81b="tolworthy"][quote:b75976f81b="Lew Stringer"]The simple fact is the strips are NOT the property of the readers.[/quote:b75976f81b]
As I said, I'd rather not start a thread on the nature of property and society. But in short, all artistic works result from a combination of both individuals and society, so both have a claim.
[/quote:b75976f81b]

Why stop at artistic works? Hey, maybe your car is a result of individuals and society too, so I'll borrow that for a month or two. :roll:

What your proposal really sounds like, whether intended or not, is a resentment that you've missed out on some classic strips, so you want them cheaper and easier than hunting down back issues. But it doesn't even stop there, because instead of the creators getting a share of any reprint, you want to shut them out after 20 years.

You mention "star names" benefiting, whoever they are, but a change in copyright law would affect every creator. As we see from this forum, only a couple dozen or so artists are fan favourites. What of the hundreds of, for want of a better description, "average" creators?

Do you really think that the majority of creators working in American comics are better off than those working in UK comics? That's simply not true I'm afraid.

We're currently living in the best era ever for collectors of old comics, with FREE scans on the net, comics to buy on eBay from the comfort of your home, and reprints in quality books available in the High Street, yet even that doesn't seem enough for you. Incredible.

Lew

PS: Speaking of those free scans, here's a link to the section of this website which has a bunch of such items. An excellent variety of British strips scanned from the pages of the comics. You can even see the texture of the paper. As close to owning the real thing as possible, with the added bonus of no musty smell. :wink:

http://www.comicsuk.co.uk/FullStrip/FullStripMain.asp

SH
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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by SH »

good old Jonah. Wish they would bring him back.

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Steve Bright
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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by Steve Bright »

Lew, your last handful of posts....

[i:c14beec75c]brilliantly [/i:c14beec75c]put with restraint and dignity (not sure I could have done it), and as NP said,[b:c14beec75c] damn right![/b:c14beec75c]

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kevf
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Re: The fizzog that sunk a thousand ships - Jonah at fifty.

Post by kevf »

Red White & Blue (1943):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K35hQON3PY8

Spinach For Britain (1941):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNkUHZfK6OY

Goonland (1938)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPulJzMIzck

The Jeep (1938)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjkAlsSinp8

1st Episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UjM9UI40jk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzMgJpTd-hQ

There are hundreds out there, I doubt there's one you can't find. Now what was that about copyright again?

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