Is The Dandy no longer educational?

[Elliotgc]

Hi,

I am 17 and will start in the upper sixth in September. I have been a collector of annuals for 10 years. I am doing an extended project, which is a 6000 word project akin to the dissertations you would have to do at University. I have to conduct all the research, with minimal support from teachers. For my project I have chosen to do the decline of the Dandy, and how it is no longer educational.

My first hypothesis is that the comic, at least in its earlier incarnations, was educational. Many of its best cartoons promoted an imaginative and exciting world, described in complex syntactical and grammatical terms, a world where good fought evil (and invariably won), where justice prevailed over injustice, and where moral values were taught. I would argue that nowadays this is no longer the case, as evidenced in the first issue of Dandy Xtreme, which included bogies, barfs and other such vulgarities which do not, in my humble opinion, interest young children. They may influence a few individuals, but they succeed only in alienating most of the target audience.

In the 1950s The Dandy included:

1. Didactic point.
2. Good triumphing over evil.
3. Foreign stereotypes.
4. All foreigners portrayed as sly and deceitful.
5. Lots of war stories – especially in the eras following the World Wars.
6. Mainly text – very dense material with complex vocabulary etc.
7. Illustrations were well drawn.
8. Often taught boys things such as how to tie a fisherman’s knot etc.

The Dandy of today does none of these things. They may not all be good things, but I am sure that a lot of those were more beneficial to a child's education than bogies or barfs.

I came across the Comics Code Authority, which regulated the storylines which were published in America, and which was enforced in the 1950s. This stated that comics should not be racist, sexist and that they should not contain violence, sex or other such things which may be harmful to a child. I wonder whether such a thing existed in England? I would guess that it must have had some effect, as stories became more politically correct in the 1960s, with the disappearance of storylines involving "golliwogs" and "coons", but I do not know whether this was due to the CCA or something else.

I have to find academics' views on the subject, but I am struggling with this, and have yet to find anything published by an academic. I wonder if any of you know if anyone has written about the demise of The Dandy or the declining standards of comics in general?

I discovered that sales of the Dandy in the 1950s peaked at 2035010 on the 22nd April 1950 and nowadays average 28000 per fortnight. I wonder whether anyone knows where I could find records of the Dandy's sales year by year, which would show a clear decline in sales, which I would argue is due to a decline in quality. I would be looking to compile a questionnaire in the next few weeks and would be grateful if some of you could answer this. I can only do the project if it is controversial, so please don't be afraid to disagree with me.

Look forward to hearing your views on this matter.

Thanks,
Elliot

[tony ingram]

The CCA in America came into effect because it was the only way the industry could protect itself from witch hunts by thhe likes of Frederick Wertham. It wasn't motivated by lofty ideals but by survival, and had as far as I know no counterpart in Britain. I think racist stereotypes disappeared simply because the publishers realised they were no longer acceptable, though this is comparatively recent; the late 1970's, I'd say.

[NP]

I discovered that sales of the Dandy in the 1950s peaked at 2035010 on the 22nd April 1950 and nowadays average 28000 per fortnight. I wonder whether anyone knows where I could find records of the Dandy's sales year by year, which would show a clear decline in sales, which I would argue is due to a decline in quality. Elliot

Hi Elliot
I think it would be a mistake to make this point because the 2 million plus sales in April 1950 were a bit of a fluke, due in large part to the sudden interest in comics that the launch of Eagle sparked. Sales have been in decline ever since, and yet the quality of the Dandy has remained very high. I think the Dandy of the 1960s was of higher quality than the 1950s one, and there was a definite dip in the 1970s and early 1980s, before attaining a very high standard again. Of course the Dandy Xtreme heralds it's departure from the Dandy brand in it's very name, so it can't really be compared directly. However, I don't believe comics have been specifically 'educational' since Rainbow in 1909, although I learned to read because I wanted to know what the balloons said!

[Digifiend]

Later than the 70s Tony - stereotypical black girl Polly didn't disappear from the Beano's Lord Snooty strip until 1985. Certainly though, they stopped adding new racist characters by the 70s. Benji, Ball Boy's pal, for example, was always shown with gray or, once colour was added, brown skin, never literally black skin, which earlier black comic characters would've been given.

Polly was only ever the token black kid in the Snooty strip (a black Rosie basically), but when she had her own strip (as all the characters added in 1950 had done) her race would've been irrelevant, as Polly Wolly Doodle and her Great Big Poodle was about her and her dog Pongo, who, as the title suggested, wasn't a poodle at all, but a bigger dog. With that storyline, they could've easily drawn her as a white girl.

Some comics are educational, but mostly, they're not the ones most of us on this forum would be interested in. Usually pre-school titles, which don't tend to include comic strips these days. The Beano does include "Factoids" in place of jokes sometimes. On the Ball Boy strip this is often football stats, on other strips, it depends on the storyline. An example on this week's Rasher, which features an old-fashioned weighing machine: "In old measurements, a stone was made up of 14 pounds and was equal to 6.35kg." The Dandy may not be educational any more, but The Beano is.

[Lew Stringer]

For my project I have chosen to do the decline of the Dandy, and how it is no longer educational.

My first hypothesis is that the comic, at least in its earlier incarnations, was educational.

I think you may be pursuing the wrong angle. The remit of The Dandy was never to be educational, as opposed to Eagle for example which had education as its main focus. The Dandy has always been about entertainment, and, like most comics, reflecting the world the readers live in. Sometimes that sadly included a negative view of foreigners, which is something that has vanished with more social integration, travel, and an awareness that people are pretty much the same all over. It's not "political correctness". Just social awareness and common sense.

Today, the Dandy (or rather Dandy Xtreme) reflects modern humour and modern interests. It could be argued that the feature pages on video games are "educational", or the current issue's article on building a worm farm in an old fish tank.

As for 1950s attitudes towards comics, I suggest you seek out 'A Haunt of Fears' by Martin Barker, - a fascinating book about the anti-comics campaign in Britain in that period.

It sounds like you're treating The Dandy as an island, when in fact it's always been influenced by the society around it, as is any periodical. As for falling sales, this is an ongoing problem with ALL comics, newspapers, and magazines, regardless of whether their content is educational.

Lew

[Elliotgc]

Hmm it posted twice... How do I delete this message?

[Elliotgc]

Thanks for all your comments.

Yes I realise the sales in 1950 were a bit of a fluke - I believe it was because paper rationing ended and that was the first date on which DCThomson increased circulation. Would you happen to know what the consistent, average sales figures were for this period please?

One question I've always puzzled about - how come sales of the Dandy and the Beano were similar in 1950 but are so different nowadays? You've made the point that the quality of the Dandy has remained very high but the sales have still fallen. The same has obviously still happened to the Beano, but why not to such an extent as for the Dandy?

I chose to do the Dandy as I felt it had declined more than the Beano, and that this was evidenced by the switch to magazine format. I was going to do British comics in general but the teacher and I decided that this was too broad and I could probably write a 600000 word dissertation on it so I narrowed it down to one comic, and The Dandy seemed the obvious choice. Obviously if the Dandy is not possible I will do a different comic. I had thought about the Eagle, but as it stopped some years ago I'm not sure how I could talk about it's decline, as the 1980s/1990s were very different, and the very fact it ended is evidence of its decline.

Hmm I'm not so sure about doing about the educational aspect. The thinking behind it was that in 1950 a lot of the stories were text-based and so the children had to read large chunks of text. They often contained complex vocabulary and grammar which the children learnt, while reading comics, which are traditionally seen as having a negative effect on children, as opposed to a positive one. The most complex vocabulary you will find in the modern day Dandy Xtreme is "bogies" or "barfs", which is surely evidence of its decline? Or a sign of it altering to fit in with changing times?

I realise sales had fallen drastically so DCT had to do something in 2004 to try and boost sales, but am I right in thinking that sales before this were around 50000 per week, so the change actually had a negative effect on sales? They obviously had to make some other change to try and rectify this, but the magazine format may not have been the right way to go. I stopped buying the Dandy when it changed in 2004, only getting the odd issue, as opposed to before, when I bought each issue religiously. I bought the first issue of Dandy Xtreme, but the "bogies" and "barfs" did not appeal to me and the price hike was too much and spelled an end to my consistent purchase of the Dandy.

Ok, so I'm not in the target audience, but I'm only just out of it. I have always much preferred reading old tigers, lions, valiants, victors and hotspurs etc, as I preferred the adventure stories and football stories. Any idea why this form of comic stopped? I would have thought that this was most popular with young boys? The Dandy has still kept going for another two years, so maybe the change has worked? There is obviously a small readership, but I think if they altered it slightly to include football stories or adventure stories it might claw back a large amount of lost readers. The people who bought it before the change are probably, aside from collectors, not going to buy it again as they are too old for it, but it may attract a new age of comic readers.

I suppose you could argue that the game reviews in the Dandy Xtreme are educational, but I would argue that children do not buy the Dandy for this purpose. Surely if they wanted game cheats and reviews they would look on the internet or buy PCGamer, for example? Is there any evidence showing that children find the Comix section the most interesting in the magazine?

You may be right about me pursuing the wrong angle, Lew. Any idea what would be a better thing to do?

Thanks for the information about that book, I will look it up. I found a book called The History of The Beano. Do you know if they is a similar thing for the Dandy, or if there is any useful information in that book relating to my topic?

I don't mean to sound like I'm treating the Dandy as an island, separate from everything else and unaffected by everything. Obviously the Dandy has to change to accommodate changing times, and I will look at social context, but I can't imagine any young children roaring with laughter at the mention of bogies or barfs. I was going to look at declining literacy standards having an effect on the decline of literacy standards in The Dandy, and therefore in children, or vice versa, but again this was too broad. It has to be specific and controversial. I appreciate that sales are an ongoing problem with all comics, but why has the Dandy fallen so drastically in comparison to other comics, which are still going? It used to be the highest selling comic, and now it is the lowest.

On a side note, I have not been able to find the Dandy Xtreme anywhere. All newsagents seem to have the Beano, but the Dandy is nowhere to be seen. Is this because it is so popular, and it is therefore sold out or, as I suspect, that less issues are in circulation? When did the current issue of the Dandy Xtreme go on sale?

Thanks again,
Sorry for all the questions,
Elliot

[Steve Henderson]

I wouldn't attribute a fall in sales with a decline in educational material. The reason the Dandy became so popular and acheived such high sales figures was in part due to the baby boom. Had there been xbox 360s in post war Britain I doubt the dandy would have enjoyed such a high sales figure. Social factors play a huge role in the decline of sales. How are you getting on with your research? What's in your bibliography? Perhaps people can reccomend more books, articles and documentarys to aid the work? I'd start with comics britannia its a nice overview of comics but perhaps you have seen that

[Digifiend]

There's no Dandy equivalent to The History of the Beano. However, The Dandy Monster Index lists all strips the comic published from 1937-1989. The Beano Index included in History was an updated version of the one in DMI's counterpart, The Beano Diaries.

In History of the Beano, pages 13, 14, 23, 43, 44, 65, 160, 186-9, 241, and 285 refer to The Dandy.

Comics Brittannia isn't entirely accurate, episode one credits Euan Kerr and Morris Heggie as being the editors of Dandy and Beano respectively, instead of Beano and Dandy.

Dandy Xtreme should be in WHSmith if not anywhere else. Funny thing is, I can find that and Beano weekly easily, but BeanoMax and Classics from the Comics are harder to obtain. Xtreme's website hasn't been updated since the issue dated 21 May 09 - 03 June 09 was out. A new issue came out yesterday. 30 July 09 - 12 Aug 09. I don't know if you was aware, but Xtreme is fortnightly - further evidence of its decline in my book, as before the 2007 relaunch it was weekly.

What in the world?

Elliotgc
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:46 pm
Posts: 0

Zero posts? Impossible!

[Steve Henderson]

I'm sure Elliot will have no problems sorting out trivial mistakes such as that. The history of the beano has plenty of mistakes many of them discussed on here. If anything has no mistakes in it its had too much money spent on it! I'm sure most mistakes are easy to spot and will not effect his final outcome

[Jonny Whizz]

I think the purpose of comics such as the Dandy is to entertain rather than educate. Pre school magazines, which as previously stated rarely contain comic strips nowadays, educate. It's just that the tastes of kids have changed over the years.

The highest sale figure for the Beano (I don't know for the Dandy) was in 1950. This indicates to me that this was down to circumstances more anything else, coming after the end of paper rationing in particular. You would have thought that, at the very least, Dennis the Menace would have been in the best selling issue ever, and probably Minnie, Roger and Bash St Kids as well, given they're still the most popular characters and they revolutionised British comics. Most people wouldn't be able to name any of the strips from the Beano of 1950 except Biffo, Lord Snooty and Pansy Potter.

[Digifiend]

Snooty wasn't even in the issue in question. He was absent for most of that year. It's reprinted in full in History.

[ajsmith]

I think Ellliot may be alluding to The Dandy once having had, not so much educational qualities, as having some kind of "moral core", the kind of Apollonian ideals that pre-and immediately post-war British society would've attempted to instill in it's children, and which The Dandy, in it's heroic text stories, heroic "straight" comic adventures and some factual features, definitely reflected to a degree. However, it must be said that in the context of these times, the Beano and the Dandy were the 2 most Un-Apollonian comics of the day, in their humour comic content at least.

[tony ingram]

One question I've always puzzled about - how come sales of the Dandy and the Beano were similar in 1950 but are so different nowadays? You've made the point that the quality of the Dandy has remained very high but the sales have still fallen. The same has obviously still happened to the Beano, but why not to such an extent as for the Dandy?

I interviewed Euan Kerr a few weeks ago and asked him the same question. He put it down to the arrival in the early 1950's of Dennis, Minnie, Roger and the Bash St Kids in the Beano; the Dandy has nothing to compare with those characters, really. I think he's right, but to add to that, I think those characters are popular because they are anarchic and to an extent change with the times. The Dandy was always rather more conservative and regarded as a bit old fashioned, at least by my peer group in the '70's.

[AndyB]

Euan has pointed to the sales figures for that period to me as well. That was the point where the Beano overtook the Dandy, and stayed there - in essence, Dennis, Minnie, the kids and Roger constituted such a sea change and innovation that the Dandy was simply left behind.

I would go on to note what characters have stayed around in the 60 years since Dennis arrived, and you will realise that only about five of all the strips introduced to the Beano in that time have given more than 20 years total service - Billy Whizz, Billy the Cat, Ball Boy, Ivy, and Calamity James. Of the strips introduced since James, even Les Pretend has had an enforced break due to John Sherwood's death.

That in turn leads to the fairly surprising realisation that the Beano is doing rather well on a relatively small number of new characters to complement a solid core of strips which originated 20 or more years ago - the Beano of 2009 has an awful lot in common with the Beano of 1989, and I don't just mean the reprints.