The "gross comics" debate

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Lew Stringer
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by Lew Stringer »

ISPYSHHHGUY wrote: This sealed bags marketing ploy probably attracts some readership, but I reckon it is off-putting to a significant number of potential readers: all I can gather other than your own reliable reccomendations are the thoughts of two members on here who bought or saw this publication once, and dubbed it 'gross-out' as it's very title suggests.....

Even if someone can scan in a page on here of typical X-treem fare, it will maybe help to promote it a bit, which is what it deserves.
I agree with you regarding the bags, but it's a bit of a cheek asking people to go out of their way to scan a page for you just because you won't buy a copy of your own. :roll: :lol:

And it's Dandy Xtreme by the way. :wink:

In conclusion I think if adults dislike the modern Dandy so much it must be doing something right, just like parents of Fifties kids hated rock n roll. :lol:

Lew
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Lew Stringer
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by Lew Stringer »

ISPYSHHHGUY wrote: This sealed bags marketing ploy probably attracts some readership, but I reckon it is off-putting to a significant number of potential readers: all I can gather other than your own reliable reccomendations are the thoughts of two members on here who bought or saw this publication once, and dubbed it 'gross-out' as it's very title suggests.....

Even if someone can scan in a page on here of typical X-treem fare, it will maybe help to promote it a bit, which is what it deserves.
I agree with you regarding the bags, but it's a bit of a cheek asking people to go out of their way to scan a page for you just because you won't buy a copy of your own. :roll: :lol:

And it's Dandy Xtreme by the way. :wink:

In conclusion I think if adults dislike the modern Dandy so much it must be doing something right, just like parents of Fifties kids hated rock n roll. :lol:

Lew
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philcom55
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by philcom55 »

Lew Stringer wrote:In conclusion I think if adults dislike the modern Dandy so much it must be doing something right, just like parents of Fifties kids hated rock n roll.
...Not to mention pre-code horror comics - and of course the whole Punk/Action furore during the 1970s!

- Phil Rushton
Raven
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by Raven »

Lew Stringer wrote:
Interesting responses. Each to their own of course but I found it bizarre that some people find real life farts funny, but not in the comic strips! Conversely I don't find it funny if people deliberately do it in public but I think it's harmless and inoffensive in a humour strip.

Lew

Just to be clear, with my own example, I wasn't suggesting that people deliberately farting in public was funny, but there are conceivable situations where, in spite of ourselves, real life farts can be funny. A pompous high-minded spiritual monologue from the pulpit interrupted by loud trumpets from a near-deaf old lady who doesn't realise she's doing it may be funny because of its sheer inappropriateness and out of embarrassment.

There's also the supposedly-true story of the girlfriend being picked up by her boyfriend to be driven off to a date. Her stomach is bulging with wind but she hasn't had time to go to the toilet. She's absolutely, utterly desperate to get it all out. He opens the door for her to slip into the passenger seat. She realises she only has till he gets round the car and into the driver seat to let it all out and avoid extreme embarrassment. So she expels the gas in one massive long trumpet that seems to shake the seats. Luckily it finishes just as he opens the car door and lets himself in.
Then he introduces his two elderly parents who are sitting in the back seats.

Both these examples may be funny because of the situation,the embarrassment, and breaking of social taboos - but not because farting *in itself* is funny.

Gross out humour has been around a lot longer than 25 years but I don't think the comics establishment were out of touch for not featuring it (let's be honest; for both children and adults, fart and bodily function gags have always been considered the lowest of the lowbrow; scraping-the-bottom-of-the-barrel stuff) but because they thought sinking to such lowest common denominator fare was way beneath them.

Similarly, the ITV of old wouldn't have filled its evenings with celebrities eating animal genitalia and having maggots dumped on their heads, or its mornings with the Jeremy Kyle Show. These things certainly existed: Clive James on TV used to delight in showing clips from the likes of the Japanese Endurance or America's Jerry Springer Show, as examples of how lowbrow international TV could get. Now, desperate for ratings and wholly dumbed down, ITV is filled with the same sort of fare. Do we say ITV has "evolved"? Or would "devolved" be more appropriate?

I'd also question this idea that children have somehow "chosen" this material. Children's entertainment is devised by adults, created by adults and imposed on them by adults. Whether we give them lowest common denominator crudity or clever, creative, imaginative fare is entirely down to grown-ups (and, of course, dependent on the skills and creativity of those grown-ups.) Whether to aim high or low is entirely down to them.

I'm also inclined to think the fart/snot/turd angle in comics is probably part of the sweeping infantilisation of society which, again, it's hard to think of as a positive trend or "evolution."
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by Raven »

Lew Stringer wrote: In conclusion I think if adults dislike the modern Dandy so much it must be doing something right, just like parents of Fifties kids hated rock n roll. :lol:

Lew

But are its poor and ever-plummeting sales a sign that it's doing something right? Kids have to like it a lot, don't they?

philcom55 wrote:...Not to mention pre-code horror comics - and of course the whole Punk/Action furore during the 1970s!

- Phil Rushton

But that's to assume that just because some adults disliked pre-code horror comics and punk and Action in the '70s, that some adults now dislike the farting/turdy/snotty/dumbing down of the Dandy and similar trends in comics for exactly the same kind of reasons. There's no reason to assume that at all, is there?

Do you not see a strong, subversive intelligence and imagination behind a certain amount of the best EC. Action, punk output? Aren't adults more likely to dislike the lowbrow fart-strewn humour because of the lack of imagination and intelligence?


None of this is intended to upset the fart fans, by the way, but Lew - whose own skill, imagination, creativity and superb taste in comics is not in question at ALL - did request a debate!
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tony ingram
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by tony ingram »

Raven wrote: Gross out humour has been around a lot longer than 25 years but I don't think the comics establishment were out of touch for not featuring it (let's be honest; for both children and adults, fart and bodily function gags have always been considered the lowest of the lowbrow; scraping-the-bottom-of-the-barrel stuff) but because they thought sinking to such lowest common denominator fare was way beneath them.

Similarly, the ITV of old wouldn't have filled its evenings with celebrities eating animal genitalia and having maggots dumped on their heads, or its mornings with the Jeremy Kyle Show. These things certainly existed: Clive James on TV used to delight in showing clips from the likes of the Japanese Endurance or America's Jerry Springer Show, as examples of how lowbrow international TV could get. Now, desperate for ratings and wholly dumbed down, ITV is filled with the same sort of fare. Do we say ITV has "evolved"? Or would "devolved" be more appropriate?

I'd also question this idea that children have somehow "chosen" this material. Children's entertainment is devised by adults, created by adults and imposed on them by adults. Whether we give them lowest common denominator crudity or clever, creative, imaginative fare is entirely down to grown-ups (and, of course, dependent on the skills and creativity of those grown-ups.) Whether to aim high or low is entirely down to them.

I'm also inclined to think the fart/snot/turd angle in comics is probably part of the sweeping infantilisation of society which, again, it's hard to think of as a positive trend or "evolution."
Very well put, and I couldn't agree more. This is partly why I rarely watch any new TV these days, and I was pretty revolted by a lot of the contents of this year's Dennis & Gnasher Annual, too. Gross humour is an easy but not very clever alternative to actual wit, and I find it desperately unfunny. Come to think of it, I did as a kid, too.
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by Raven »

tony ingram wrote: Very well put, and I couldn't agree more. This is partly why I rarely watch any new TV these days, and I was pretty revolted by a lot of the contents of this year's Dennis & Gnasher Annual, too. Gross humour is an easy but not very clever alternative to actual wit, and I find it desperately unfunny. Come to think of it, I did as a kid, too.

I did, too. I would have found it deeply patronising as a kid. Potty humour would have made me think the comics were for infants and make me want to stop reading them fast.
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philcom55
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by philcom55 »

Raven wrote:But that's to assume that just because some adults disliked pre-code horror comics and punk and Action in the '70s, that some adults now dislike the farting/turdy/snotty/dumbing down of the Dandy for exactly the same kind of reasons. There's no reason to assume that at all, is there?
My emphasis is the other way round: that children have always been attracted to things that offend their parents for the simple reason that it allows them to claim them as their own property.

On the subject of farting, by the way, let's not forget the celebrated example of Le Petomane who once performed in front of Queen Victoria herself (in fact I seem to remember Bryan Talbot expressing an ambition to draw his life story in comic strip form! ).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evwLzR57wsc

- Phil Rushton
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Lew Stringer
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by Lew Stringer »

tony ingram wrote:Gross humour is an easy but not very clever alternative to actual wit, and I find it desperately unfunny. Come to think of it, I did as a kid, too.
Even Ken Reid's Nervs strips?
Raven wrote: But are its poor and ever-plummeting sales a sign that it's doing something right? Kids have to like it a lot, don't they?
The sales were falling before it went Xtreme. Sales on all periodicals are falling, regardless of whether they feature gross humour or not.

The reason Dandy went Xtreme was to imitate Toxic, - which had impressive sales and responses from our readers showed that kids did like gross humour.

Lew
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by Raven »

Lew Stringer wrote: The sales were falling before it went Xtreme.
Lew

But not as much.

The point is just that with sales continually on the decrease - if they continue to fall as they have over the last year it'll be down to 10,000 readers or less by the end of this year and zero by the end of 2011 - this isn't really the ideal time to be saying Dandy Xtreme must be doing something right, because there isn't necessarily any indication of that.

What sort of thing was going on in the Dennis and Gnasher Annual then, Tony?
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by Raven »

philcom55 wrote:[
My emphasis is the other way round: that children have always been attracted to things that offend their parents for the simple reason that it allows them to claim them as their own property.

- Phil Rushton

I'm not sure it does actually offend parents in quite the same way, though - it probably just depresses them a bit that standards seem to have dropped so low. We haven't seen any movements to try to ban the Dandy Xtreme, or any great controversy about it.
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by Lew Stringer »

Raven wrote:
philcom55 wrote:[
My emphasis is the other way round: that children have always been attracted to things that offend their parents for the simple reason that it allows them to claim them as their own property.

- Phil Rushton

I'm not sure it does actually offend parents in quite the same way, though - it probably just depresses them a bit that standards seem to have dropped so low. We haven't seen any movements to try to ban the Dandy Xtreme, or any great controversy about it.
"standards have dropped so low". Just because of a few harmless fart gags? Passing wind in comics is depicted as so completely over the top and exaggerated that I'm amazed it upsets anyone.

What direction would people have preferred The Dandy to take if not to reflect modern tastes? Fold and let the creators lose work, just so a few collectors could retain an unsullied run of the comic free of humour they didn't like? The Dandy was failing. It's the norm for periodicals in such circumstances to adopt a new approach and sometimes imitate a successful business model. Toxic was the template Xtreme imitated but since then Xtreme has forged more of its own identity, and has more strips than it did when it first changed.

I find the animosity towards the modern Dandy quite surprising. If it's any consolation there's not one fart gag in any of the strips in the latest Dandy Xtreme. Not one. A character falls into a sewer, another character burps, and another character is shown idly picking his nose. Fatty in The Nervs was shown doing two of those things 40 years ago in the pages of Smash! and I bet no one here old enough to remember it thought it was lowering the tone at all.

Lew
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Raven
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by Raven »

Lew Stringer wrote:
"standards have dropped so low". Just because of a few harmless fart gags?
And snot gags and turd gags ... etc etc.

Lew Stringer wrote: What direction would people have preferred The Dandy to take if not to reflect modern tastes?

Again, it depends whether or you not you consider it to be "modern tastes." Lots of things kids love aren't filled with toilet humour. The kid-friendly manga isn't and they seem to go for that. The Simpsons comic isn't. Their biggest TV shows don't seem to be.

I've never agreed that "modernising" automatically equals "dumbing down" or that "reinventing for a modern audience" automatically means "making cruder."


Lew Stringer wrote: I find the animosity towards the modern Dandy quite surprising. If it's any consolation there's not one fart gag in any of the strips in the latest Dandy Xtreme. Not one. A character falls into a sewer, another character burps, and another character is shown idly picking his nose. Fatty in The Nervs was shown doing two of those things 40 years ago in the pages of Smash! and I bet no one here old enough to remember it thought it was lowering the tone at all.
Lew

But nobody here has been complaining about a character falling into a sewer, burping or idly picking his nose either.

Do you think there's anything the artistic equal of Ken Reid's The Nervs in todays Xtreme, Lew?
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Peter Gray
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by Peter Gray »

I bought the new Dandy Xtreme.quite funny it had two covers the same..

Desperate Dan farts on the contents page after a beans contents..
two characters fall in the sewer...bananaman and a man in Jak and Todd
two reprints Owen Goal and Blinky
Spooky Skater farts

oh well its not for me.maybe its the bad way the characters talk in Spooky Skater
the general chatter in the mag very with it..street chat..loads of reviews which don't interest me.But fair enough i'm too old..
The Bogies are just not my humour.or Bananman by the new artist..

I like Desperate Dan and Cuddles and Dimples..
Marvo...and Blinky artist..But theres not much other than that for me..
But hey I'm 35 and The Beano is more my taste..

Image
and old Dandys..
But I have bought two now..and the Christmas issue..
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Re: The "gross comics" debate

Post by Raven »

Peter Gray wrote:I bought the new Dandy Xtreme.quite funny it had two covers the same..

Desperate Dan farts on the contents page after a beans contents..
two characters fall in the sewer...bananaman and a man in Jak and Todd
two reprints Owen Goal and Blinky
Spooky Skater farts


You missed that snot "gag" in Spooky Skaters there, Peter.

So that's at least two farts as opposed to none, though?
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