The Tammy difference

[Tammyfan]

I can understand that - in fact I noticed a lazy reprint of a 60s Bessie Bunter in a 72 June. And of course Tammy would go on to continue that strip & have a decline (I never found BB very funny at all anyway).

I guess some strips you either love or hate. I still enjoy Bessie Bunter, and the Storyteller is another favourite. I was never a great fan of Molly Mills, though I know a Tammy collector who has become a real Molly addict.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix: re No Tears for Molly: I re-read my passage and found that I did make a mistake in the structuring there. I have now reworked it and sorry for any confusion...../.....Still, if you like things black and white, discussions on categorising girls's serials are probably not for you.

Perhaps not for you either, Tammyfan, in view of the number of times you are having to correct yourself! I am nonetheless gratified to see that in my second selection from the same post, you have seen fit, in another attempt to dig yourself out of a hole, to take the edge off your original assertion that if I like things in black and white I shouldn't be categorising girls' serials. However, isn't your suggestion that perhaps I shouldn't even get involved in discussions about the topic, more dismissive?

I have now read the articles you helpfully linked me to, and I do have a few observations to make. I believe you have accepted Mills's categories too uncritically. They look fixed but they are narrow, and far from the last word in categorisation of themes in any story paper, whether for girls or boys. He tacitly acknowledges this in accepting a point raised by mistyfan that regular characters are required, (DCT equivalents being The Four Marys, Valda, Moira Kent, Lorna Drake, Wee Slavey etc.), and presumably he would also accept Horror as another category. It is very likely, anyway, that his categories were personal rather than general, possibly also related just to the kind of stories he was comfortable writing. Other editors and writers, such as those he mentions like Gerry Finley-Day, Pat Davison etc., would not have been obliged to follow Mills's lead. As a point of comparison, I have categorised all the serials from DC Thomsons' output for girls in a different way. I've used headings like Entertainment, Artistic, School, Fantasy, Sport, Mystery, Science Fiction, Wild West etc. All the serials that Mills would classify as Slave or Cinderella I classify under Emotive, but I do allow for sub-categories in all instances. I assume that Mills would accept some of the above because Tammy or Jinty could never have survived as long as they did with more than half of their content devoted to his reduced number of categories.

I would also take issue with his statement about boys not liking mystery stories. Apart from the fact that it isn't true in a general sense, it isn't even true when related to story papers/comics overall. I could list loads of mystery story titles from within Thomsons' picture paper output for boys between 1961 and 1991. You couldn't say that Thomsons didn't have their finger on the pulse. If they had sensed such a liability in their offerings, they would have been onto it like a rat up a drainpipe. Furthermore, Mills makes the judgement on the basis of one serial deemed to have failed. One? In any case, how did he know? Simply relying on those Which are your favourite/least favourite stories? returns to the editor would be rather silly because most children would not be bothered to fill the coupon in, or spoil their paper by cutting the coupon out.

A final word about my use of the expression black and white. I expected it to be interpreted as clarity. I am genuinely shocked that you think I hadn't realised that serials have a combination of themes when that has always been the case.

[Tammyfan]

Yes, I know Pat Mills couldn't have been right about everything in his articles and they would have had some subjectivity; for example, the slough of despond can't be entirely to blame for the decline of British comics. I'm finding people's comments here about mystery in boys' comics very interesting. After reading them, I wonder if he gave up a little too easily on the mystery element in Battle after the poor reception to Terror behind the Bamboo Curtain. Could there have been a different reason for TBBC not doing so well? Maybe he should have done some research into what boys liked to read by asking them, as Jinty did with girls, instead of merely transposing the elements of girls' stories into Battle. Come to think of it, I do find Pat's comments about boys not liking mystery a bit strange - after all, they do like Sherlock Holmes and detective stories.

[colcool007]

TBH, there were quite a few mystery stories in Battle. One that springs to mind is Fighting Mann where

Writer Alan Hebden tells the story of Colonel Mann's quest to uncover the truth behind his son's disappearance during the Vietnam war

beautifully illustrated by Cam Kennedy.

Another is some of the interludes in Charley's War such as why Blue became a deserter from the French Foreign Legion.

I am sure if I dredge my memory, I can come up with more, but I can certainly add one from 2000AD in Rogue Trooper's hunt for the Traitor General.

And while Phoenix is strident in putting his opinions across, I do agree with him that Pat Mills is narrowing his categories a little too far. While I do hold Pat Mills in awe for keeping the UK comics scene in the 70's at a high level, I am aware that Pat could push the envelope a bit too far. A good example is the Crisis comic. Third World War was awesome but New Statesmen was just too contrived for it to work well for anyone other than the Ben Elton Appreciation Society.

[Tammyfan]

TBH, there were quite a few mystery stories in Battle. One that springs to mind is Fighting Mann where

Writer Alan Hebden tells the story of Colonel Mann's quest to uncover the truth behind his son's disappearance during the Vietnam war

beautifully illustrated by Cam Kennedy.

Another is some of the interludes in Charley's War such as why Blue became a deserter from the French Foreign Legion.

I am sure if I dredge my memory, I can come up with more, but I can certainly add one from 2000AD in Rogue Trooper's hunt for the Traitor General.

And while Phoenix is strident in putting his opinions across, I do agree with him that Pat Mills is narrowing his categories a little too far. While I do hold Pat Mills in awe for keeping the UK comics scene in the 70's at a high level, I am aware that Pat could push the envelope a bit too far. A good example is the Crisis comic. Third World War was awesome but New Statesmen was just too contrived for it to work well for anyone other than the Ben Elton Appreciation Society.

Interesting. So if the mystery element did work in Battle, why does Pat say that boys don't care about mystery and just want to see action? It's beginning to sound like he made a mistake in his autopsy report on TBBC and it was not the mystery element that was the problem. Maybe the problem was it being mystery/slave; those other examples you mention sound like mystery/action. And the blog post I found on TBBC (link listed earlier) indicates that some boys liked it.

[Phoenix]

And while Phoenix is strident in putting his opinions across, I do agree with him that Pat Mills is narrowing his categories a little too far.

Strident? Moi? I think you need a rethink there, Colin. The meaning of strident, as per my New Oxford Dictionary Of English is loud and harsh; grating: presenting a point of view, especially a controversial one, in an excessively and unpleasantly forceful way. So, you're obviously talking through your tam-o'-shanter.

I know Pat Mills couldn't have been right about everything in his articles and they would have had some subjectivity

Pat Mills cannot be criticised for experimenting, and to judge by the little I have to judge by, he seems to have made a significant impact. By the launch of Tammy in 1971, the time was right for such a rethink. Thomsons' three main titles, Bunty, Judy and Mandy had ruled the roost since 1958, 1960 and 1967 respectively, and would also see off the new girls on the block. They had a formula that really appealed to the girls of that time, and were really quite similar to each other. Not having so far read any issues of Tammy or Jinty, I cannot assess Mills's impact, but to judge from his interview with Jenni Scott, he wrote some seminal stories, and was a major influence on the change of direction for Tammy, and the creator of Action. He does, however, seem to have been quite restless, so maybe there was much more that he could have done with those titles where he had his hand on the tiller. Perhaps the best he could have hoped for nevertheless was a long-term parity with Thomsons' big guns.

[Tammyfan]

In the case of Misty, Pat Mills did want a real hand on the tiller. He told the directors he would do Misty if he produced her and received a percentage of the profits (ref The Heroine's Progress in Comics Heroes, March 2011). He didn't get the deal and ended up as a writer and consultant editor on her. He believes that if he had got the deal, Misty would still be around today and perhaps led on to real revitalisations in the comics industry. Whether it would have we will never know. Still, it's nice to think about what might have been if he had got the deal.

[Phoenix]

He told the directors he would do Misty if he produced her and received a percentage of the profits (ref The Heroine's Progress in Comics Heroes, March 2011). He didn't get the deal and ended up as a writer and consultant editor on her. He believes that if he had got the deal, Misty would still be around today and perhaps led on to real revitalisations in the comics industry.

The interview with Jenni Scott took place in 2004 so the today Mills refers to was in that year, a mere three years after the passing of Bunty, but thirteen years after Thomsons saw fit in 1991 to merge Judy with Mandy into the bland and very disappointing M&J, which lasted just seven years before it was thankfully discontinued. The following year of course the company also called time on their flagship story paper The Victor, their only remaining boys' weekly.

I have read Mills's rather cynical views on the issue of mergers, but even leaving all that aside, the writing was clearly on the wall for all story papers. We could spend all day fruitlessly debating the whys and wherefores, but the stark financial reality for any company producing them was obvious. If children were not going to buy the papers, the companies were going to close them down. So for all Mills's enthusiasm, his innovative ideas, the other groundbreaking plots and stories submitted by Misty's devoted team of writers, one of whom was your good self I noticed this morning when leafing through my Misty 25th anniversary special from 2005, and even if Mills had not decamped, Misty would still have been toast well before 2004.

[Marionette]

and even if Mills had not decamped, Misty would still have been toast well before 2004.

It's easy to speculate on might-have-beens, but consider the example of 2000AD, which continues to this day, likely because it didn't fall into the blandness trap which seems to have been the downfall of so many comics. Had Misty continued with a strong editor who made the most of its genre elements, it's entirely possible that it might have survived long enough among a loyal fan base to be swept up in the wave of teen vampire and other dark fantasy literature that has become so popular in the last ten years or so.

[Phoenix]

Clearly 2000AD has had a good team behind it, and presumably still has, but where were the equivalent high-quality writers and artists who could have kept Misty going? Perhaps there just weren't enough to go round, and no comic can rely on a couple of individual writers, even ones as innovative as Pat Mills seems to have been, especially with the high risk of burnout. The editor will obviously have had a key role to play, perhaps even coming up with a range of unusual plots to get his writers to tackle, but the comic didn't even have a particularly long life in its prime, as you know, just two years on its own, and then four more after Tammy took it over. The genre comic Romeo had already bitten the dust in 1974, the same year Jinty started, and although the other key genre comic Warlord, which started life in 1974, had gone twelve years later, at least it had shown that a genre comic had potential for a reasonable lifespan, even then. Overall though, I would say the vibes were not too optimistic. A revamp might just work now though in the current climate. The 15-year-old Putney-based daughter of my elder son's partner is always reading the vampire and dark fantasy novels that you refer to, but I've never yet seen her with a comic of any description. As an experiment, I'll buy her a run of Misty from 30th Century Comics and see what she thinks of them. I'm going down there again in just over two weeks.

[Marionette]

Clearly 2000AD has had a good team behind it, and presumably still has, but where were the equivalent high-quality writers and artists who could have kept Misty going?

To some degree the same writers and artists that worked on 2000AD or Warrior, or who, like Neil Gaiman, did very little work here because there wasn't anywhere much available beyond 2000AD, and got snapped up by American publishers. Imagine if there was a comic that specialised in dark fantasy in this country around the time that Gaiman first started writing comics. He might have spent a little more time here before writing Sandman; a supernatural comic with a massive female readership that hasn't gone out of print in twenty five or so years.

[Tammyfan]

According to Pat Mills (The Heroine's Progress, http://comiczine-fa.com/?p=3810, http://patmills.wordpress.com/2012/10/1 ... le-2000ad/) the old guard (conservative and set in their ways) took over Misty, creating a counter-revolution and causing her demise. I can't find any real evidence of that in Misty (maybe the old guard just decided that she was not their cup of tea and quickly merged her off?). But it certainly was the case in Tammy, who lost all her grittiness by the 1980s.

Mavis Miller, who used to be editor of June, came to Jinty and made Jinty her own with SF and sports stories. Mavis coming on board could explain Jinty shifting from the initial Tammy-esque fare of misery, grittiness and cruelty to the SF/fantasy/sports fare that Jinty was known for. When Mavis left to get married, Pat reckons Jinty began to falter; if Mavis had stayed, Jinty might still be around today. But Mavis couldn't stay on Jinty forever, and I think it more likely that Jinty would have lasted longer than she did before going under and perhaps being the one to incorporate Tammy. If she had, I wonder what Jinty would have been like with Bella Barlow in it? It would certainly have brought some of Jinty's original cruelty and grittiness back with the abusive Jed and Gert and assorted rivals and threats that Bella is always faced with. And it would have brought John Armstrong to Jinty, where he could have drawn some of Jinty's sports stories when Bella was on hiatus. BTW, Armstrong never drew anything for Jinty. His art appeared in some of the Gypsy Roses, but they were just reprints of old Strange Stories (substituting Rose for the Storyteller). His art also appeared a couple of the Jinty annuals, but those were reprints of June serials.

I certainly agree about blandness setting in. The only real appeal I found in M&J were the reprints of old serials from Judy and Mandy, some with revised titles. And bland was the word for Bunty by that stage. Occasionally I found a story of interest, but the rest was largely stuff about friends, family, boyfriends and school. Not an ounce of grittiness anywhere. Not a single Cinderella or slave story in sight, and Bunty had had her share in the past, such as Come Home, Kathleen and Detestable Della. It was obvious to me that Bunty was dying, and the death knell was the end of The Comp.

Artist Douglas Perry was probably another defector from IPC to DCT. Perry had been a regular in Tammy from the beginning (Bernice and the Blue Pool, Slaves of the Hot Stove, Palomo, The Camp on Candy Island and Molly Mills are some examples) until 1982. Later I saw his art in Bunty, where he drew Dolwyn's Dolls, Sally on Planet Serbos, The Imposter and The Seeker among others. This may have been for similar reasons to Robert MacGilivray as Perry disappeared from Tammy in 1982, not when she stopped in 1984.

[helsbels]

In my opinion, Jinty started going downhill from early 1980, which I guess would be around the time Mavis Miller went (if the stories then are anything to go by). " Pam Of Pond Hill" started in late 1979 and as stories go, is okay but all those imaginative out -there stories you'd get in Jinty just disappeared completely. When "Life's A Ball For Nadine" and a reprint of Sandie's dreadful "Angela Angel Face" appeared you knew Jinty had lost the plot by then.
I'm currently reading through all my Jintys and I'm on 1980 now and the difference is so marked you'd think you were reading a totally different comic by that time.

[Tammyfan]

In my opinion, Jinty started going downhill from early 1980, which I guess would be around the time Mavis Miller went (if the stories then are anything to go by). " Pam Of Pond Hill" started in late 1979 and as stories go, is okay but all those imaginative out -there stories you'd get in Jinty just disappeared completely. When "Life's A Ball For Nadine" and a reprint of Sandie's dreadful "Angela Angel Face" appeared you knew Jinty had lost the plot by then.
I'm currently reading through all my Jintys and I'm on 1980 now and the difference is so marked you'd think you were reading a totally different comic by that time.

Jinty still had some good stories, such as Tears of a Clown, Girl the World Forgot, Dracula's Daughter and Worlds Apart. But it's a pity that Jinty finished off Worlds Apart in such an awful hurry so her final seven issues could 'count down' to the merger. I feel the ending really suffered from that and was not as good or developed as it should have been.

In the last seven issues you can certainly feel that Jinty was declining. The Bow Street Runner is one of her weaker stories. The story just doesn't work because you can tell a mile off that the heroine has completely misconstrued the prophecy she received and there's nothing to worry about. For it to work, the prophecy has to take the form of a riddle with a double meaning, and the heroine takes what seems the obvious meaning. Then it turns out the prophecy meant something completly different and it takes her and the reader by surprise. Jinty did it right in Cursed to be a Coward! where a fortune teller foretells that the heroine will end up in blue water. She takes this to mean she will drown, but it turns out that 'blue water' is the name of her new home.

Do you reckon Mavis leaving was a factor in Jinty merging with Tammy?

[Phoenix]

It was obvious to me that Bunty was dying, and the death knell was the end of The Comp.

And the end of everything else!! You would have to admit, though, that a run of just over 42 years was no mean feat. Of all the story papers produced by Thomsons, only The Rover (1922-1973) lasted longer while retaining its initial presentation form. The Hotspur (1933-1981) actually ran for just over 46 years, but as it changed from a text story paper to a picture strip story paper in 1959, I've always thought of it as two different story papers.

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. (Pete Seeger, The Byrds, oh, and Ecclesiastes 3:1, mustn't forget that one!).