I have just checked my Jinty comics for bleed-through, they all seem to have this problem. (scan below)
The comic scan below was graded "very good" by a reputable dealer, the comics graded "fine" have the same extent of bleed-through.
I have never seen this taken into consideration when buying comics, if this is a problem that gets progressively worse over time then surely these comics would not be graded so high, by that I mean, if they did not have bleed-through then the comic examples that I have would have to be graded vfn or better, and being as the pages are off white this would exclude these comics from such a high grading.
Would anyone else like to comment on this, the point I am trying to make is, dealers it seems to me, do not feel this is a problem, at least not in the grading? Or do I have sucker stamped on my forehead!
Well that's no fun
Re: Well that's no fun
I see a double-edged sword here...
On the one hand, I frustratingly do not own a computer of my own & do not trust buying stuff over the net as you can be easily conned (and I've never had a credit card or loan - seen what they do to people...) so I have to do collecting via shops/fairs/info alone, whilst working off a budget - have rent/bills/food to pay too...
However, there is a fun element to this in that I can talk face to face with people, you know & see what you're getting and the conditions and best of all, it's a trip to a new town and a change of scenery, and a chance to visit a few diffeerent pubs, have a beer, see some otehr shops/museums & chat to locals.
And collecting gradually in bits can be fun and makes each buy that bit more special; on the other hand it can be a crushing disappointment if trips end empty handed. Oh well, sunshine and rain...
On the other hand - if I won the lottery or came into a lot of money, I'd buy the best computer, be able to scan strips for future generations, be at home all day to do deals and say name your price to the stuff I'd really, really want. If I did get some offers now & if I can afford & excahnge point could be arrange, I'd might consider (saves time/hassle/train fares)- then go on to search for my second wanted comic set instead.
Fun is the ups and downs...
On the other hand if I won the lottery and came into
On the one hand, I frustratingly do not own a computer of my own & do not trust buying stuff over the net as you can be easily conned (and I've never had a credit card or loan - seen what they do to people...) so I have to do collecting via shops/fairs/info alone, whilst working off a budget - have rent/bills/food to pay too...
However, there is a fun element to this in that I can talk face to face with people, you know & see what you're getting and the conditions and best of all, it's a trip to a new town and a change of scenery, and a chance to visit a few diffeerent pubs, have a beer, see some otehr shops/museums & chat to locals.
And collecting gradually in bits can be fun and makes each buy that bit more special; on the other hand it can be a crushing disappointment if trips end empty handed. Oh well, sunshine and rain...
On the other hand - if I won the lottery or came into a lot of money, I'd buy the best computer, be able to scan strips for future generations, be at home all day to do deals and say name your price to the stuff I'd really, really want. If I did get some offers now & if I can afford & excahnge point could be arrange, I'd might consider (saves time/hassle/train fares)- then go on to search for my second wanted comic set instead.
Fun is the ups and downs...
On the other hand if I won the lottery and came into
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ISPYSHHHGUY
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Re: Well that's no fun
Sorry to hear about your financial plight, David: however you can find work and get bargains through a computer so theoretically it should pay for itself.
Live how you choose, though!
Yes, these IPC comics look like they're pretty prone to the dreaded bleed-through.
Matrix: I'm not quite sure if anyone anywhere can supply you with Fine copies of JINTY anywhere: maybe they're ALL like this, everywhere, if a dealer can't get a hold of copies without bleed-through, I don't know who can, so you're not a sucker.
IPC comics are not especially my favourites, but I know a lot of folks on here prefer them them to DCT. It is quite alarming this 'bleed-through' drawback: I can only suggest scanning the comics soon in order to halt the bleeding, it will be 'frozen' in the scans [it looks like the bleeding will get worse, I only hope I'm wrong] and hopefully this defect can be cured later on when the technology is ready. Maybe it even exists today, but I can't do this on computer easily I've discovered .
Phew! I've been struggling trying to sort out that previous scan: no joy as yet, but I'm off to seek advice on this on the GIMP forum....will report back later.
Live how you choose, though!
Yes, these IPC comics look like they're pretty prone to the dreaded bleed-through.
Matrix: I'm not quite sure if anyone anywhere can supply you with Fine copies of JINTY anywhere: maybe they're ALL like this, everywhere, if a dealer can't get a hold of copies without bleed-through, I don't know who can, so you're not a sucker.
IPC comics are not especially my favourites, but I know a lot of folks on here prefer them them to DCT. It is quite alarming this 'bleed-through' drawback: I can only suggest scanning the comics soon in order to halt the bleeding, it will be 'frozen' in the scans [it looks like the bleeding will get worse, I only hope I'm wrong] and hopefully this defect can be cured later on when the technology is ready. Maybe it even exists today, but I can't do this on computer easily I've discovered .
Phew! I've been struggling trying to sort out that previous scan: no joy as yet, but I'm off to seek advice on this on the GIMP forum....will report back later.
Re: Well that's no fun
Actually, colour bleed-through is relatively easy to filter out. It's only when black ink is involved that there are real problems.matrix wrote:I have just checked my Jinty comics for bleed-through, they all seem to have this problem.
- Phil R.
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ISPYSHHHGUY
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Re: Well that's no fun
That's a great improvement, Phil----better than I managed thus far! Congratulations!
I'm just glad that something can be done about this...
still a bit of a dilemma with black bleed-through, like you say----pretty tough to fix thus far, but hopefully something can be done.
I'm just glad that something can be done about this...
still a bit of a dilemma with black bleed-through, like you say----pretty tough to fix thus far, but hopefully something can be done.
Last edited by ISPYSHHHGUY on 22 Aug 2012, 12:18, edited 1 time in total.
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ISPYSHHHGUY
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Re: Well that's no fun
The following are some of the best scans I have seen anywhwhere on the 'net, and these derive from IPC comics, in this case : ACTION, which shows that good quality archives are certainly possible.
I don't know if the 'archive-dude' has had access to the actual original artwork, which would go some way to explain some of the hyper-quality seen here:
http://www.sevenpennynightmare.co.uk/?p=1242
I don't know if the 'archive-dude' has had access to the actual original artwork, which would go some way to explain some of the hyper-quality seen here:
http://www.sevenpennynightmare.co.uk/?p=1242
Re: Well that's no fun
I just had a go at cleaning the panel from Tammy...with not much success.
It's degraded the line work too much and left residual splodges, but at least it's just about readable. Using this method you'd need to provide a lot of tedious post processing by hand to get it looking like those magnificent Action scans (see above)...
It would be slightly more effective if the original was scanned at a non-interpolated 1200dpi and saved as a .tif. A few problems were caused by rogue jpeg artifacts. I'd be really interested to see if anyone else could do a better job using 'automated' clean-up.
Tech stuff...
I used the 'Unsharpen' filter in Photoshop, followed by 'Exposure', then I tweaked the 'Levels'. This usually works really well on pages that are less blighted than the one above...
It's degraded the line work too much and left residual splodges, but at least it's just about readable. Using this method you'd need to provide a lot of tedious post processing by hand to get it looking like those magnificent Action scans (see above)...
It would be slightly more effective if the original was scanned at a non-interpolated 1200dpi and saved as a .tif. A few problems were caused by rogue jpeg artifacts. I'd be really interested to see if anyone else could do a better job using 'automated' clean-up.
Tech stuff...
I used the 'Unsharpen' filter in Photoshop, followed by 'Exposure', then I tweaked the 'Levels'. This usually works really well on pages that are less blighted than the one above...
My new art blog...beta version... http://mikedcuk.blogspot.co.uk
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ISPYSHHHGUY
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Re: Well that's no fun
yes I had a bash too, Mike, this was a real challenge: stable black-and-white artwork is pretty easy, but if black-and-white bleeding seeps through, like in this case, it's a real morassy mess. This is by far the most difficult task I have discovered yet.
The only way I can see doing this at the moment [as you seem to agree] is to 'cut in' around the black lines manually in extreme close-up, which ain't easy.
The only way I can see doing this at the moment [as you seem to agree] is to 'cut in' around the black lines manually in extreme close-up, which ain't easy.
Re: Well that's no fun
Sorry, think I went off on a tangent... I am in a job & working for the best firm I've worked for and best paid so far - but take nothing for granted no job is for life today. It's not so much financial plight, just I believe in living within my means/budgets - making room for collecting too. I'm about the only person in my firm not in debt so far! (and think I'm frustrated with collecting temporarily suspended due to bills all in at once - but I'll be back when saving's done!)
I'm just saying I like to go to the shops in different cities, have a day out, paced collecting can be fun (many vendors tell me others like me don't trust the net and like the personal touch as well).
Would get myself a computer, but I need coaching and mentoring on the pitfalls from operation to buying over the net.
If I did get an offer for what I look for & really really want and the time is right, I might just break the bank though...
Must say re: bleeding in comics, I did get an IPC comic recently with that problem - had to very slowly and carefully seperate sticky page and couldn't see all of a speech bubble.
I'm just saying I like to go to the shops in different cities, have a day out, paced collecting can be fun (many vendors tell me others like me don't trust the net and like the personal touch as well).
Would get myself a computer, but I need coaching and mentoring on the pitfalls from operation to buying over the net.
If I did get an offer for what I look for & really really want and the time is right, I might just break the bank though...
Must say re: bleeding in comics, I did get an IPC comic recently with that problem - had to very slowly and carefully seperate sticky page and couldn't see all of a speech bubble.
Re: Well that's no fun
Please excuse my ignorance, but you chaps have totally lost me with your scanning info, how did you clean that up Phil?
I'm just wondering, does anybody think the grading is wrong for comics with this defect? Should a comic with bleed-through be graded fine? Has anybody seen this taken into account in grading information?
I'm just wondering, does anybody think the grading is wrong for comics with this defect? Should a comic with bleed-through be graded fine? Has anybody seen this taken into account in grading information?
Re: Well that's no fun
The JPG artifact problem can be eliminated by saving the original scan as a PNG or TIF instead.
Re: Well that's no fun
I'm afraid my clean-up was nowhere near as sophisticated as Mike's or Rab's - I simply raised the contrast and brightness of the image. This generally blitzes halftones in a matter of seconds, though it does result in some degradation. If I had time to experiment I'm sure I could have done it more effectively with coloured layers.
Unfortunately I don't know if titles such as Tammy and Jinty suffered from these problems when they came off the presses, but even if they didn't I suspect that the bleeding would have happened quite quickly afterward as acids in the ink reacted with the paper. As a result I'd guess that there are very few copies left that haven't suffered in the same way, allowing dealers to argue that this is their 'normal' state today (though, hopefully, they won't deteriorate much more in the future now that the damage has been done). I think the main problem was the awful paper that publishers began to use during the 1970s as printing costs skyrocketed - though it has to be said that the quality varied enormously from one title to another. Early issues of Action, for example, used brilliant white paper that allowed them to have painted covers by the likes of Don 'Trigan Empire' Lawrence!
For most titles published in the 1960s, however, I'd say that this sort of thing is more likely to have resulted from damp - in which case they definitely shouldn't be described as mint copies!
- Phil R.
Unfortunately I don't know if titles such as Tammy and Jinty suffered from these problems when they came off the presses, but even if they didn't I suspect that the bleeding would have happened quite quickly afterward as acids in the ink reacted with the paper. As a result I'd guess that there are very few copies left that haven't suffered in the same way, allowing dealers to argue that this is their 'normal' state today (though, hopefully, they won't deteriorate much more in the future now that the damage has been done). I think the main problem was the awful paper that publishers began to use during the 1970s as printing costs skyrocketed - though it has to be said that the quality varied enormously from one title to another. Early issues of Action, for example, used brilliant white paper that allowed them to have painted covers by the likes of Don 'Trigan Empire' Lawrence!
For most titles published in the 1960s, however, I'd say that this sort of thing is more likely to have resulted from damp - in which case they definitely shouldn't be described as mint copies!
- Phil R.
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Marionette
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Re: Well that's no fun
I had a go and I'm quite pleased with the result.
The Tammy Project: Documenting the classic British girls' comic, one serial at a time.
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colcool007
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Re: Well that's no fun
That has come out quite nicley Marionette. What did you use to achieve that effect? My only negative comment is that your version seems a bit high on the contrast! 
I started to say something sensible but my parents took over my brain!
Re: Well that's no fun
If its an ultra rare comic and it's got bleed through but in pristine condition bar the printing error don't expect to get any money knocked off....matrix wrote:Please excuse my ignorance, but you chaps have totally lost me with your scanning info, how did you clean that up Phil?
I'm just wondering, does anybody think the grading is wrong for comics with this defect? Should a comic with bleed-through be graded fine? Has anybody seen this taken into account in grading information?