Junior Detectives in the story papers and comics

[paw broon]

Raven, As to when the first instances of young 'tecs in the papers was, I haven't a clue. But I might know a man who does. A pal of mine, who is also a lot older, is a collector of, and very knowledgable about, British and American pulp (in it's widest sense) literature. It was he who started me on the slippery slope of Union Jack, Thriller, Dixon Hawke and the costumed/masked heroes and villains who inhabit the old Libraries, storypapers and pulps. I'll ask - he'll be at the Glasgow mart this weekend.
Tubby Haig, well, it's a long time since I read this story and it is formulaic with lots of stiff upper lip, cool, calm responses from Haig while all around are on the edge of panic. You get the idea. This one's a sort of Mary Celeste mystery. But as I enjoy Dixon Hawke and Union Jack Sexton Blake, this is a level below that. If you're interested in formats, this is a wee bit bigger than a Dixon Hawke but with 64 pages.
The Peter Flint story is a football one titled Peter Flint and the Football Cup Mystery and the cover depicts the goalie about to save and falling into a hole which has opened up beneath him. Also The Ferrers Locke story is A Marked Man - A Football Story and appears in the Boys' Friend Library #23, new series, 1925. So it might have originally been a back up in The Magnet. All the soccer fans on this site will surely be interested!
Whether it's worth your time trying to find stuff like this depends on how addicted, interested, time rich you are. Personally, I love this stuff but can only afford so much cash for it and, I'm running out of space.
You obviously know of the Blake, Lee, Charles Hamilton sites, etc. but as you point out, there is a distinct lack of info. out there.

[Raven]

Thanks for all the additional info, paw. I am a little intrigued by this period of pulp fiction heroes, which, I expect, in another generation or two, will indeed be (almost) completely forgotten. Interesting to hear about the tropes and themes of the time - and maybe your collector friend will have some obscure info on Saturday.

[felneymike]

Thanks for all the additional info, paw. I am a little intrigued by this period of pulp fiction heroes, which, I expect, in another generation or two, will indeed be (almost) completely forgotten.

Search your local bookshop's "crime" section for either of the two recent Sexton Blake collections, edited by either David Stuart Davies or George Mann! The second one is a lavish hardback with a huge range of stories from the 1900's - 30's and it even reproduces some of the illustrations! Mind you they're crammed into book dimensions rather than at the half tabloid-ish size they originally appeared.

[Raven]

Search your local bookshop's "crime" section for either of the two recent Sexton Blake collections, edited by either David Stuart Davies or George Mann! The second one is a lavish hardback with a huge range of stories from the 1900's - 30's and it even reproduces some of the illustrations! Mind you they're crammed into book dimensions rather than at the half tabloid-ish size they originally appeared.

I'm sure I've seen one of them at a Waterstone's.

I have just won a Sexton Blake library from 1955 (I hadn't realised it was that late on) - issue number 333: 'The Prisoner in the Hold' - so I'll hope that's an interesting one.

[felneymike]

Heh, funny story, I have that issue myself and was considering reading it earlier today!

WW2-mid 50's was considered the "lean years" of Sexton Blake back in the day, but now those "boring and everyday" stories are brilliant period pieces!

[Raven]

Heh, funny story, I have that issue myself and was considering reading it earlier today!

That's quite a coincidence with so many issues out there!

[Phoenix]

Thanks for reaching back through the smaze of time to give us those three, Phoenix - the first I'd heard of any of them, I think. Did any of these stories get front covers?

A couple. Below this post is the one from the second episode of the first Battersea series, in colour, and the one from the first episode of the second series, which I only have as a photocopy. No Doodle I'm afraid, there were just so many apparently more deserving serials in competition with each other for the prize of illustration space on the cover.

So do you mean there are only those three in the pre-war story papers, or the whole of D C Thomsondom? Will you be revealing more from the later papers and comics?

I think I took your comment about stories in the old papers a bit too literally, Raven, assuming that you meant only pre-war. I will have to think about the post-war text story papers but nothing immediately springs to mind. It is also revealing that Kashgar couldn't remember much either from the boys' picture papers. There are some, though, in the girls' papers. Off the top of my head I can recall a text series, Little Miss Lonely Heart, in which a 12-year-old girl tries to prove her father innocent of the crime he was sent to prison for, and a humorous picture strip series called Maddie Hatter, about a zany new pupil at St. Hilda's, who fancies herself as a detective. Both these stories are in Judy. Across the range of Thomsons' papers for girls, and through the years, there are quite a few detective serials, but whether the girls in question are still at school I can't be absolutely sure without checking. If you really do want the research extended into these areas, I will need to allocate quite a bit of time to it that, to be honest, at the moment I don't really have. So if you do, I will do it but you will need to be patient!

[Raven]

[A couple. Below this post is the one from the second episode of the first Battersea series, in colour, and the one from the first episode of the second series, which I only have as a photocopy.

Thanks for those. (Is that the Wemblers them-very-selves in those flat caps, though? If so, they look quite adult, there.)

I think I took your comment about stories in the old papers a bit too literally, Raven, assuming that you meant only pre-war. I will have to think about the post-war text story papers but nothing immediately springs to mind. It is also revealing that Kashgar couldn't remember much either from the boys' picture papers.

I was thinking of any kid detective themes from ye olde story paper times through the 70s/80s, really. It is curious how few there seem to be considering how popular the theme was in children's fiction and drama (you might expect there to be lots of Famous Five or Hardy Boys-type rip-offs, for example). I was hoping especially that there may be some with the kind of strange and bizarre twists on familiar themes we expect from British comics. But maybe the business of clue analysing and solving was deemed a bit too slow and intellectual for the needs of many of the boys' action and adventure titles, at least.

If you really do want the research extended into these areas, I will need to allocate quite a bit of time to it that, to be honest, at the moment I don't really have. So if you do, I will do it but you will need to be patient!

Thanks for those you mention. Don't go to any special trouble, though. But if something else springs to mind or you happen to come across one at any time, maybe you could return to this thread to inform us all? Or if you feel like uploading a Doodle McFee page one fine day, please do!

[paw broon]

Raven, My questions,on your behalf, on Saturday caused a right kerfuffle with a number of people chucking in their opinions. And I don't think any of it moves us on much. Given that The Moonstone appeared in the 1860's, I think, with Sergeant Cuff and Bleak House, with Inspector Bucket in , Oops I've forgotten, it's highly unlikely that there were junior detectives prior to that time because these characters were the first of their kind in the field. Open to contradiction on most of what I write here. But my pal mentioned The Baker Street Irregulars from Sherlock Holmes and made a good argument for them doing detectivy things, even though they were street urchins. Most of the other suggestions from various people were about Americans such as Nancy Drew and The Hardy Boys.
Also a number of characters from girls comics and storypapers but mainly of the Silent 3 sort - Hooded Helpers; Green Feather; Grey Ghosts; Phantom Circle etc. However, has anyone mentioned June Gaynor from Girls' Crystal? The Neice of Noel Raymond, detective, she does lots of P.I work on her own and is also his assistant.
There is also the young reporter, again from Girls' Crystal, whose details I've forgotten and am going to look up after I've had a cup of coffee.
Hope this is of some interest.

[Raven]

Funnily enough, I'm reading Bleak House at the moment. Yes, the detective branch in Britain was formed in 1842 and, about ten years later, Dickens's Inspector Bucket was probably the first fully formed detective of British fiction. Poe had beaten him to it, though, with the likes of The Murders in the Rue Morgue in 1841, which I think was soon available in Britain though not too well known for a while.

The BBC did quite a nice Baker Street Irregulars children's series in the early 80s: The Baker Street Boys (though some of them were girls); while Holmes was indisposed, rather than just helping out, they went out and did detective work for him.

Thanks for asking around, and for the new examples. Interesting that the genre seems much more in evidence in the girls' papers.

[paw broon]

Interesting, as I'd always thought that The Moonstone was the first real, fully formed detective novel, even though it appeared after Bleak House.
As an aside, aren't those first couple of pages among the most evocative, powerful descriptions of London at the time? Wonderful stuff.
The newspaper reporter was Julie Wilson and she appeared in G.C in the late 40's and perhaps in the start of the 50's. I'm looking at G.C.#725, Sept. 1949 and a story titled Peril at the Haunted Station in which Julie, girl reporter,with her colleague, Barry Doyle (who has the supporting role), solves the mystery of a haunted station and a phantom train - shades of The Ghost Train.
If I can remember how to do it, I'll upload a June Gaynor cover.

[Phoenix]

Is that the Wemblers them-very-selves in those flat caps, though? If so, they look quite adult, there.

Yes, most of them. I think unfortunately we must blame the artist because the text states their ages clearly enough. Perhaps he was never told just how young the children were, or maybe in trying to portray them as street kids, he felt the need to show them as older than their years. I do agree with you though that their presentation is unconvincing.

I was thinking of any kid detective themes from ye olde story paper times through the 70s/80s, really.

I assume you don't mean the 1870s/80s, as The Big Five didn't start out in life until 1921. If you are referring to the 1970s etc., that's only yesterday to me!!!!!

Or if you feel like uploading a Doodle McFee page one fine day, please do!

Your wish is my command. Here is the whole of the third episode, from issue 443 of The Rover (Oct. 11 1930). Enjoy.

[Phoenix]

If I can remember how to do it, I'll upload a June Gaynor cover.

While we are waiting for paw's uploaded cover, we can whet our appetites with a complete instalment of Detective June's Strangest Case. It appeared in the issue of Girls' Crystal for February 11th 1950.

[paw broon]

Sorry. I can't figure out how to attach a file. I'll keep trying.

[Raven]

Interesting, as I'd always thought that The Moonstone was the first real, fully formed detective novel, even though it appeared after Bleak House.
As an aside, aren't those first couple of pages among the most evocative, powerful descriptions of London at the time? Wonderful stuff.

Yes, his powers of description were great. I especially like the descriptions of old London in his 'Sketches by Boz' journalism - and of some of the slums and rookeries of crime in Oliver Twist.