Newsflash! The Dandy goes... Xtreme!

Big Simon · Post by **Big Simon** » 03 Aug 2007, 17:42

Lew Stringer wrote: 'What we, as adults, think of the changes are totally irrelevant.'

Excuse me....

If you're a parent of a 7 year old and an 11 year old then it is TOTALLY RELEVANT what you want your kids to consume (whether it be in print form or on TV, or video game). I have no problem with my kids reading - and loving - comic strips like Cuddles & Dimples and Desperate Dan full of farts and bogey jokes. It's funny. I'm a comic fan myself. I have always encouraged my children to love comics.

HOWEVER, I don't want my kids reading a magazine which encourages kids to disrespect their parents, alienate girls, use appalling slang language and which prints 'jokey' scatological photos, for god's sake! I'm not sure you realise just how massive a change The Dandy has undergone in the space of just 7 days. For kids who have enjoyed the comic for years (like my boys) it's a massive, massive change. The Dandy Xtreme is a huge disappoinment to many kids and parents alike.

Lew, even you must admit even TOXIC and KRAZEE are in a different league from this dumbed down DC Thomson crap! Dandy Xtreme scrapes every barrel going.

Lew Stringer · Post by **Lew Stringer** » 03 Aug 2007, 18:47

Big Simon wrote:Lew Stringer wrote: 'What we, as adults, think of the changes are totally irrelevant.'

Excuse me....

If you're a parent of a 7 year old and an 11 year old then it is TOTALLY RELEVANT what you want your kids to consume

Fair point. My comment was really directed at adults who are/were buying The Dandy for themselves, (instead of beer for example, as the above poster put) but I should have phrased it more clearly.

However, if your child said he enjoyed Dandy Xtreme and he understood that the situations shown within were anti-social and unpleasant I'm sure you'd allow him to carry on reading it, even though you personally didn't like the mag, wouldn't you?

Big Simon wrote:The Dandy Xtreme is a huge disappoinment to many kids and parents alike.

How do you know?

Lew

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » 03 Aug 2007, 18:57

A contents page on a 16-page comic is a complete waste. Comics don't NEED contents pages anyway... I'd rather see another page of reprint if an extra page of new art is too expensive. Had another look at the poll on http://www.dandy.com. .. The readers want more 'comix' ... Will they listen again?

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » 03 Aug 2007, 19:09

Sorry.. One other thing just occurred to me. In the 'Teaser in this week's Dandy' thread Peter Gray mentioned that "Nigel P said that he was working on a new project". Maybe that means there IS a new character in the pipeline? NP, can you shed any light on this?

Big Simon · Post by **Big Simon** » 03 Aug 2007, 19:27

Lew wrote: 'If your child said he enjoyed Dandy Xtreme and he understood that the situations shown within were anti-social and unpleasant I'm sure you'd allow him to carry on reading it, even though you personally didn't like the mag, wouldn't you?'

... errr, no. Would you happily let your 7 year old watch 'Little Britain' because your child assured you he realised the 'funny' characters were just "anti-social and unpleasant"?

Explaining to a child (who has innocently loved the Dandy for some time), that the photo of the boy pretending to eat human sh*t off his hand in the 'exciting' new Dandy is just "silly joke" is not actually something I'm very relaxed about.

You've totally missed the point of my previous email. And I would hazard a guess that you're not a parent.

philcom55 · Post by **philcom55** » 03 Aug 2007, 20:10

It may be a dodgy start but I suspect that sales on Dandy had already fallen so badly that it was a case of either applying radical shock treatment or letting the patient pass away altogether. And it's worth remembering that some of the most successful comics had very inauspicious beginnings themselves: take a look at Viz number one (if you're lucky enough to find a copy!). Success breeds success in the publishing business, and if in the long run it does turn out there's an appetite for this new style who's to say that they won't be able to start commissioning new material from people like Gary and Hunt Emerson in the months ahead. A year from now we could all be eating our words! (though the odds are probably against it

)

Oddly enough there was a time when, as a dyed-in-the-wool Frank Hampson fan, my own reaction to 2000AD number one was remarkably similar to some of the comments expressed on this thread. With it's musclebound anti-heroes, uncouth slang ("Drok it!"), air of moral ambivalence and general glorification of violence I was convinced that this was the final nail in the coffin of the British comic! Of course - in the words of Bob Dylan - "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now...!"

- Phil Rushton

Lew Stringer · Post by **Lew Stringer** » 03 Aug 2007, 20:43

Big Simon wrote:
Explaining to a child (who has innocently loved the Dandy for some time), that the photo of the boy pretending to eat human sh*t off his hand in the 'exciting' new Dandy is just "silly joke" is not actually something I'm very relaxed about.

You've totally missed the point of my previous email. And I would hazard a guess that you're not a parent.

I'm not a parent. Not that it's any of your business. But with over 20 years in the industry I know what kids like in comics, and cheeky or anti-authoritarian humour usually comes top of the list.

For the record I also disliked the image of the kid licking crap. It was well O.T.T. and irrelevant to the caption beside it. It crossed a line that I personally wouldn't have crossed. Nothing else in the mag was objectionable IMHO.

Where did The Dandy encourage readers to "alienate girls"? I must have missed something.

I haven't misunderstood the point of your previous post. It's evident that you dislike the new Dandy - enough for it to blind you to the fact that UK humour comics have been "disrespecting" parents for decades.

Time and time again on this forum over the past few years The Dandy has been singled out and criticized. It's almost as if some people are waiting for it to fail so they can go "Told you so". Why bother? If adults here don't like it, don't buy it. There are numerous other current British strips to discuss and countless old UK strips and comics to wax nostalgic about without condemning comics for not being like they used to be when we were kids.

UK comics have always changed from generation to generation to reflect the society around them. We might not like that but we have to accept it. Society is not static. When Egmont was doing market research for Toxic several years ago the feedback was that kids like "extreme" stuff - extreme sports, extreme games, extreme jokes. Toxic has successfully reflected that change in society. Whether Dandy Xtreme succeeds in trying to out-gross Toxic remains to be seen, but in the world of comics I've noticed that imitations rarely do better than the originals. (See the fate of Viz clones for example.)

As for the suggestion from some that The Dandy should have been canceled instead of going "Xtreme", I suspect that if the comic had ended there would still be a long thread here complaining that Thomson's shouldn't have given up on it! Seems The Dandy is damned in all ways amongst some members of this forum.

Instead of people constantly moaning about how The Dandy Isn't As Good As It Used To Be In The Olden Days why not just talk about how great Steve Bright's artwork is in Wallace & Gromit or how well BeanoMax has now settled into a good comic/mag combo after an uneven first issue?

If I wasn't working in the industry I doubt I'd still be buying children's comics as I only tend to buy them to keep up with changes and to check out the work of my peers. But if I was buying them purely as a reader I'd only buy the ones I liked. See my point?

I'm not advocating that The Dandy is beyond criticism, and a radical new look is bound to invite comment, but the comic does seem to be singled out time and time again here, whilst most other current comics barely raise any interest when they're mentioned.

Lew

Cap Haggis · Post by **Cap Haggis** » 03 Aug 2007, 23:21

Have to say I agree with Lew and Philcom re us not giving DCT credit for taking a chance on the new look "Dandy" ( I will say now I still haven't had a look at it yet and I doubt I will like it, then again I haven't liked the Dandy since I was about 9-10 years of age) sales were obviously poor so the possibility was that the Dandy would go the way of The Beezer, Topper,Sparky, Victor, Hotspur, Hornet, Wizard (ok you get the idea)., How is it that CLASICS can last as a comic with black and white art inside , pretty bland covers (in my opinion) and a dated look and yet the Dandy has sufferd with glossy format, colour pages and free gifts - I'm not convinced that CLASSICS main readership is adults on nostalgia trips (I dont think UK comics has that big an adult "fan" or nostalgia base) do you think kids may actually like the classic artwork, the value for money of the number of pages for their pennie and maybe black and white pages??? or is it that CLASSICS only needs a small number of readers to survive? "Classics" in appearance is actually more like VIZ than Extreme

pete player · Post by **pete player** » 04 Aug 2007, 00:34

Hello there! COMICS UK FORUM....This is my first time in.

I feel it is my duty to clear up a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE misconception!

CAPTAIN HOOKLESS is not French... in fact, my only connection with any
part of Europe in general, was when I flew over it as a five-year old on my way to live in AUSTRALIA!

As you can well imagine, my memory of my life PRIOR to turning five is a
little sketchy, so I rang my mum....and she assures me that TIDWORTH
( my birthplace ) is in ENGLAND!

So it appeares that my only connection with France is a feeling of
dual-national pride when either the wallabies or the lions give the French
the sound walloping they so richly deserve on the rugby field.

Lew Stringer · Post by **Lew Stringer** » 04 Aug 2007, 03:50

pete player wrote: CAPTAIN HOOKLESS is not French... in fact, my only connection with any
part of Europe in general, was when I flew over it as a five-year old on my way to live in AUSTRALIA!

Glad you've cleared that up Pete. The strip looks great by the way. Good to have a new style in the comic.

Lew

Conor B · Post by **Conor B** » 04 Aug 2007, 08:52

from mike of glasgow
Answered 04 August 2007

New Dandy=rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dandy: Come on, Mike, don?t mince your words ? say how you really feel!

Uh-oh...

BTW Pete player did you draw Eggs files? I loved the one about the crisp flavours...

NP · Post by NP » 04 Aug 2007, 10:23

Just to clarify, the project I mentioned has no connection with The Dandy.

Big Simon · Post by **Big Simon** » 04 Aug 2007, 12:18

Lew, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree.

You created Tom Thug and know plenty about kids comics. I'm fortunate enough to be in contact with several other fantastic IPC and DCThomson artists (past and present), who have a different view to you. We can't all be the same.

If you re-read my opening message on this thread I was being positive and hopeful about the new-look Dandy. Then I, and my children, bought it. We were ALL disappointed. I am not a prudish dictator in my household. I WANT my kids to enjoy comics, as I have stressed earlier.

And as for 'alienating girls'.... have you read the same Dandy Xtreme as me!!!! The 'old' Dandy encouraged the participation of all kids - boys AND girls. I see nothing in the Dandy Xtreme which makes girls welcome. In the space of one week it's changed from an all-inclusive comic to a pre-pubescent lads' mag.

Lew Stringer · Post by **Lew Stringer** » 04 Aug 2007, 12:49

Big Simon wrote:Lew, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree.

You created Tom Thug and know plenty about kids comics. I'm fortunate enough to be in contact with several other fantastic IPC and DCThomson artists (past and present), who have a different view to you. We can't all be the same.

That's fair enough Simon. I'm not asking you to share my views. (Although I also said that I didn't care for the magazine section if you read my posts.) Just because I didn't find it as objectionable as you doesn't mean I'm over the moon about it.

I can't say I'm "disappointed" in Dandy Xtreme as disappointment stems from the unexpected. I had a pretty good idea of what to expect. Look around at other popular culture; "gross" and "extreme" things are in. Comics are a business. They reflect trends. (Only rarely, as in the case of Viz, do comics influence society. Usually society influences comics.) Dandy has clearly been heading towards a more "extreme" form for the past few years, hence the fart gags in Cuddles & Dimples and things like the "free gross tongue". The feature content of The Dandy has also been steadily increasing over the years, from the puzzle pages of a few years ago to the recent car articles. In recent months The Dandy has had only around 20 pages of strip material in a 36 page comic. Was it any real surprise that the comic content would decrease even further?

I'm just explaining why the changes have taken place, not defending them. Whether they'll be successful or not is a different matter. Actually it might be a case of "too much too late". Gross humour has been around for quite a while now (Dick and Dom's "Bogies" nonsense for example, or people eating bugs on shows like "I'm A Celebrity..." etc). If anything, comics are a bit late catching up. (We tried 20 years ago with Oink! but that was a little bit too ahead of its time for the majority. Then it was tried again with Toxic five years ago and that worked.)

It's like the old joke about the secret of good comedybeingtiming.

It's a shame your son doesn't like the new Dandy. Have you tried him on the other comics, such as Wallace & Gromit, Dreamworks Tales, or Lucky Bag? (Lucky Bag is all reprint now but I think it still contains comic strips.) Or perhaps give Dandy Xtreme another chance? (It's not like photos of kids apparently eating crap are going to be a regular feature.) And it still contains 15 pages of comic strip, as opposed to 21 or 22 a few weeks ago. Not much of a change in that respect. (Just that the magazine to comics ratio has swapped.)

I do appreciate that the price has increased steeply, and that some will consider ?1.99 too much for a 16 page comic, if they don't like the feature articles in the 20 page magazine.

It's likely that comics in the UK may die out altogether eventually. Currently the market is crowded with pre-school titles, yet very few of them feature comic strips. Therefore kids are not being exposed to comics at an early age. Therefore they won't have developed the skills to read a comic strip (ie: imagining what happens between panels, or understanding the series of pictures are a sequence not individual events) by the time they're old enough for The Beano. This is already happening with some children.

I'm hoping that Shaun the Sheep Comic proves to be a great success as that's a comic/mag for younger readers that has intelligence and wit. Perhaps it'll encourage other publishers to follow that route, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Lew

readee · Post by **readee** » 04 Aug 2007, 14:30

I'm actually surprised that the UK children's magazine market hasn't been influenced *more* by the US market...

OK, so we're getting a lot of US reprint material (such as that in Panini's Cartoon Network and Scooby-Doo titles), but I feel that the US children's magazines, for example Nick magazine and the recently launched MAD KIDS, offer a great deal more than their UK equivalents.

Those two titles have very high production values and won't be read in one sitting. They're the kind of magazines you'd want to hang onto and collect (and both have high comic content, alongside plenty of features). What stands out to me is that the features in them are rich in content and the design of them looks well-planned. In comparison, some of the British mags, look, well, a bit messy and lacking in content.

I remember when the UK Nick mag was launched (only lasted a few issues I believe), it was thin and featured far less than the US version. Why arn't kids here treated to the same depth of content as their US cousins?

Best,
Chris

Comics UK